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City by the Lake.org, The Voice of Michigan City, Indiana _ City Talk _ Kohl's, Boulevard Truck Stop and Strip Club
Posted by: taxthedeer Oct 16 2012, 05:55 PM
Does anybody know the status on any of these three?
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Oct 16 2012, 06:46 PM
Redevelopment commish approved the demo plans for the old K-Mart site the other day.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Oct 17 2012, 07:14 AM
The strip club is still awaiting approval or denial in front of the County BZA. Both sides have accepted a deferral until the zoning rules can be studied, though the lawsuit over the highway 421 site is still out there.
I don't know where the truck stop is at.
Posted by: Ang Oct 17 2012, 07:35 AM
I think the truck stop was supposed to be at the junction of 94 and 20/35
Posted by: taxthedeer Oct 17 2012, 11:40 AM
The truck stop is being proposed at 6001 Michigan Boulevard.
Building demolition and foundation laying of the Kohl's store will begin at the first of the year.
Mayor Meer is also calling out the builder of the shell of the building across from Matey's that has been under construction for the last six years. Their building permit is set to expire in December.
I still believe that the strip club ownership group wants to open up at both locations.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Oct 17 2012, 11:44 AM
Good for the Mayor. That place has been a unfinished dump for too long. Condemn it and move on.
Posted by: Tim Oct 17 2012, 03:06 PM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Oct 17 2012, 11:44 AM) 
Good for the Mayor. That place has been a unfinished dump for too long. Condemn it and move on.
What's the story with that place? What an eyesore!
Posted by: CSchwanke Oct 17 2012, 03:19 PM
The truck stop property has changed hands from the original people that wanted to build a truck stop to Pinkerton Oil out of Chesterton.
The water grid improvement project to this area will allow much better development in this area and I look for that parcel to be sold to someone else for a larger, more complete use of the entire land parcel.
The water grid improvements should be in the ground and complete by year end!!!
Posted by: taxthedeer Oct 17 2012, 03:19 PM
QUOTE(Tim @ Oct 17 2012, 04:06 PM)
What's the story with that place? What an eyesore!
That's what the mayor is trying to get to the bottom of.
Posted by: Ang Oct 17 2012, 03:32 PM
QUOTE(CSchwanke @ Oct 17 2012, 04:19 PM)
The truck stop property has changed hands from the original people that wanted to build a truck stop to Pinkerton Oil out of Chesterton.
The water grid improvement project to this area will allow much better development in this area and I look for that parcel to be sold to someone else for a larger, more complete use of the entire land parcel.
The water grid improvements should be in the ground and complete by year end!!!
So are you saying the Truck Stop is now a no-go?
Posted by: taxthedeer Oct 17 2012, 04:26 PM
Here's the story on the mistake by the lake. It was supposed to be some overpriced tourist trap ice cream parlor called La Dolce Vita "The Sweet Life" and it was being built a group that calls themselves Harborview, LLC and are headed up by and individual named John Ziola.
I did a google search on John Ziola, I figured how many of those can be there in this world, I believe the guy is 75 years old and is either dead or living in the Chicago suburbs.
http://www.citybythelake.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2052
Posted by: taxthedeer Oct 17 2012, 04:52 PM
Here's a back article form the 05-23-12 News-Dispatch:
http://thenewsdispatch.com/articles/2010/05/27/features/business/doc4bf89d8fe8fed734391647.txt
QUOTE
Slowly, But Surely
Deborah Sederberg/The News-Dispatch A crane lifts roof supports for the La Dolce Vita Bistro and Italian Gelato restaurant just south of the Franklin Street bridge.
Construction on North Side bistro making progress
By Deborah Sederberg
Staff Writer
Published: Sunday, May 23, 2010 4:12 AM CDT
MICHIGAN CITY — The gelato may or may not flow this summer, but with some help from a crane, the roof of the La Dolce Vita Bistro and Italian Gelato shop just south of the Franklin Street bridge is on its way up.
Ann Crockett, majority stockholder in 101 Holding Co., a Limited Liability Corp. and owner of the new operation and the land upon which it is situated, said, “The economy is still too risky” for some investors.
Neither Crocket nor her husband, builder John Ziola, could promise gelato for this summer.
Nonetheless, on a recent chilly and drizzly afternoon, Ziola directed traffic and the crane operator as it lifted heavy beams and heavy bundles of sheeting for the roof to the upper reaches of the buildings.
Plans call for the establishment to sell pizza, salads and panini sandwiches, beer, wine and gourmet coffee, as well as ice cream and gelato.
While banks have been reluctant to loan money for the development, Ziola and Crockett, based in Worth, Illinois, had hoped to build — the eatery and perhaps soon a hotel and condominiums — they have secured some private investment at the rate of $10,000 per share for the restaurant.
About the bistro/gelato structure, Ziola says, “It will be a beautiful building.”
The main floor will be 2,648 square feet, with 1,300 square feet of seating on the rooftop. The building also will include a 645 square-feet basement with a walk-in cooler.
Although Crocket owns the land on which the Swingbelly’s restaurant is located, Mark Warner continues to own the restaurant. Ziola said Warner will serve as manager of La Dolce Vita, as well as Swingbelly’s.
Although Ziola says he could have hoped for more help from Michigan City, perhaps in the form of tax breaks, he also said he has enjoyed working with City Planner John Pugh.
“John has been about as helpful as he can be,” Ziola said.
As for when the new bistro/gelato shop — in English, “The Sweet Life” — will open, Ziola said he would like to open this summer, but he has some doubts about that plan.
Already, he said, Crockett has purchased tables for the place from Sicily and a fountain from Sorrento.
“I think La Dolce Vita will be good for Michigan City,” he said.
Deborah Sederberg/The News-Dispatch A crane lifts roof supports for the La Dolce Vita Bistro and Italian Gelato restaurant just south of the Franklin Street bridge.
Construction on North Side bistro making progress
By Deborah Sederberg
Staff Writer
Published: Sunday, May 23, 2010 4:12 AM CDT
MICHIGAN CITY — The gelato may or may not flow this summer, but with some help from a crane, the roof of the La Dolce Vita Bistro and Italian Gelato shop just south of the Franklin Street bridge is on its way up.
Ann Crockett, majority stockholder in 101 Holding Co., a Limited Liability Corp. and owner of the new operation and the land upon which it is situated, said, “The economy is still too risky” for some investors.
Neither Crocket nor her husband, builder John Ziola, could promise gelato for this summer.
Nonetheless, on a recent chilly and drizzly afternoon, Ziola directed traffic and the crane operator as it lifted heavy beams and heavy bundles of sheeting for the roof to the upper reaches of the buildings.
Plans call for the establishment to sell pizza, salads and panini sandwiches, beer, wine and gourmet coffee, as well as ice cream and gelato.
While banks have been reluctant to loan money for the development, Ziola and Crockett, based in Worth, Illinois, had hoped to build — the eatery and perhaps soon a hotel and condominiums — they have secured some private investment at the rate of $10,000 per share for the restaurant.
About the bistro/gelato structure, Ziola says, “It will be a beautiful building.”
The main floor will be 2,648 square feet, with 1,300 square feet of seating on the rooftop. The building also will include a 645 square-feet basement with a walk-in cooler.
Although Crocket owns the land on which the Swingbelly’s restaurant is located, Mark Warner continues to own the restaurant. Ziola said Warner will serve as manager of La Dolce Vita, as well as Swingbelly’s.
Although Ziola says he could have hoped for more help from Michigan City, perhaps in the form of tax breaks, he also said he has enjoyed working with City Planner John Pugh.
“John has been about as helpful as he can be,” Ziola said.
As for when the new bistro/gelato shop — in English, “The Sweet Life” — will open, Ziola said he would like to open this summer, but he has some doubts about that plan.
Already, he said, Crockett has purchased tables for the place from Sicily and a fountain from Sorrento.
“I think La Dolce Vita will be good for Michigan City,” he said.
Posted by: taxthedeer Oct 17 2012, 07:06 PM
Ziola and his group was originally wanting to build a $20 million "Condotal" on that site that included demolishing Swingbelly's.
http://www.citybythelake.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=678
This whole thing needs to be scrubbed.
Posted by: CSchwanke Oct 17 2012, 07:45 PM
QUOTE(Ang @ Oct 17 2012, 04:32 PM)
So are you saying the Truck Stop is now a no-go?
That is not in any way a fact but it is my belief. We shall see very soon.
Posted by: Tim Oct 18 2012, 08:19 PM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Oct 17 2012, 04:52 PM)
Here's a back article form the 05-23-12 News-Dispatch:
2010, actually.
Posted by: taxthedeer Oct 18 2012, 09:13 PM
QUOTE(Tim @ Oct 18 2012, 09:19 PM)
2010, actually.
I went and had a burger for lunch at Swingbelly's this afternoon. After all this time and they have not even come close to finishing construction, it should be bulldozed at the owners expense.
Posted by: Tim Oct 18 2012, 09:17 PM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Oct 18 2012, 09:13 PM)
I went and had a burger for lunch at Swingbelly's this afternoon. After all this time and they have not even come close to finishing construction, it should be bulldozed at the owners expense.
I know! How could it be left standing in its current condition for so long?
BTW - how was your burger?
Posted by: taxthedeer Oct 18 2012, 09:52 PM
QUOTE(Tim @ Oct 18 2012, 10:17 PM)
I know! How could it be left standing in its current condition for so long?
BTW - how was your burger?
Tasty burger, Takeru Kobayashi would have have been proud of how fast I woofed down everything, had the bacon and cheddar with tomato, grilled onion and barbecue sauce with chips on the side and a bowl of chili as an appetizer. My server was constantly filling my glass with diet pepsi. The place was decorated really nice for Halloween. A eastbound Amtrak passed by and dropped off passengers at the station while I was eating.
Posted by: taxthedeer Oct 30 2012, 11:22 AM
There will be a joint meeting of the county comission, BZA and council reguarding the strip club beginning at 5:30 pm at the County Complex in La Porte.
Posted by: Ang Oct 30 2012, 01:37 PM
How much you wanna bet they table it? I figure they think if they put it off long enough, it will go away.
Posted by: taxthedeer Oct 31 2012, 06:07 AM
QUOTE(Ang @ Oct 30 2012, 02:37 PM)
How much you wanna bet they table it? I figure they think if they put it off long enough, it will go away.
I sat in the meeting for two and half hours last night. The county commission is adopting two ordinances to prevent establishments such as this from locating here. Some felt the ordinances needed to be stronger that what is being proposed such as banning billboard advertising. There was another suggestion that La Porte County needs to look into why there are no SOB's (sexually oriantated businness) of any kind in Porter County and adopt the same measures.
Everybody in the audiance got a good chuckle when Mr. Burys stated that he is trying to start a "healthy business".
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Oct 31 2012, 07:41 AM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Oct 31 2012, 07:07 AM)
I sat in the meeting for two and half hours last night. The county commission is adopting two ordinances to prevent establishments such as this from locating here. Some felt the ordinances needed to be stronger that what is being proposed such as banning billboard advertising. There was another suggestion that La Porte County needs to look into why there are no SOB's (sexually oriantated businness) of any kind in Porter County and adopt the same measures.
Everybody in the audiance got a good chuckle when Mr. Burys stated that he is trying to start a "healthy business".
Ordinances are a stupid idea. All that is going to do is get the county sued. There are better ways of going at this.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 1 2012, 12:01 PM
The meeting taxthedeer referred to is now available for download at
http://www.allcommunity.org/?page_id=846
Posted by: Tim Nov 1 2012, 04:50 PM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Oct 31 2012, 06:07 AM)
I sat in the meeting for two and half hours last night. The county commission is adopting two ordinances to prevent establishments such as this from locating here. Some felt the ordinances needed to be stronger that what is being proposed such as banning billboard advertising. There was another suggestion that La Porte County needs to look into why there are no SOB's (sexually oriantated businness) of any kind in Porter County and adopt the same measures.
Everybody in the audiance got a good chuckle when Mr. Burys stated that he is trying to start a "healthy business".
lol@ "Healthy business".
This is the last thing Our Fair City needs.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 1 2012, 08:02 PM
I get so tired of these types of created controversies. Don't like strip clubs? Don't go! Don't like medical marijuana? Don't smoke it! Don't like the casino? Nobody's putting a gun to your head!
You know what's gonna happen to the quality of life in Michigan City if this club gets approved? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. So sick of the drama queens. The argument about the "type of people" a club like that attracts doesn't hold water, either. The same people that would frequent a place like that frequent other bars, too. I don't see anybody starting any petitions to put Decoy's or Reilly's out of business.
Collectively, we need to get over ourselves. Just one man's opinion.
Posted by: Tim Nov 1 2012, 09:12 PM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 1 2012, 08:02 PM)
I get so tired of these types of created controversies. Don't like strip clubs? Don't go! Don't like medical marijuana? Don't smoke it! Don't like the casino? Nobody's putting a gun to your head!
You know what's gonna happen to the quality of life in Michigan City if this club gets approved? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. So sick of the drama queens. The argument about the "type of people" a club like that attracts doesn't hold water, either. The same people that would frequent a place like that frequent other bars, too. I don't see anybody starting any petitions to put Decoy's or Reilly's out of business.
Collectively, we need to get over ourselves. Just one man's opinion.
One could say you should get over yourself. I wouldn't, but one could.
Come on - your argument is like saying if you don't like heroin dealers don't do heroin. So just let the heroin dealers infect our city with their poison as long as it doesn't affect you personally?
Posted by: mcstumper Nov 1 2012, 09:19 PM
Everytime I look at the name of this topic I think, "Yes... a Kohl's Truck Stop Strip Club. I could see myself shopping there."
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 1 2012, 09:25 PM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 1 2012, 10:12 PM)
One could say you should get over yourself. I wouldn't, but one could.
Come on - your argument is like saying if you don't like heroin dealers don't do heroin. So just let the heroin dealers infect our city with their poison as long as it doesn't affect you personally?
Speaking of people who need to get over themselves ...
No, heroin is illegal. Strip clubs are not illegal. So, actually, it's nothing like that at all.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 1 2012, 09:27 PM
QUOTE(mcstumper @ Nov 1 2012, 10:19 PM)
Everytime I look at the name of this topic I think, "Yes... a Kohl's Truck Stop Strip Club. I could see myself shopping there."
Ha!
Posted by: Tim Nov 1 2012, 09:29 PM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 1 2012, 09:25 PM)
Speaking of people who need to get over themselves ...
No, heroin is illegal. Strip clubs are not illegal. So, actually, it's nothing like that at all.
Wow. You really don't get it.
You say "Don't like strip clubs? Don't go!"
No one here is looking at it from that perspective. Rather the effect these halls of sleaze will have on the image of Our Fair City.
It's a valid point of argument.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 1 2012, 11:10 PM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 1 2012, 10:29 PM)
Wow. You really don't get it.
You say "Don't like strip clubs? Don't go!"
No one here is looking at it from that perspective. Rather the effect these halls of sleaze will have on the image of Our Fair City.
It's a valid point of argument.
I "get it" perfectly. I'm saying it's an invalid argument. I think the impact a place like that has is GREATLY exaggerated.
I also "get" that nobody here is looking it from that perspective, which is why I introduced a NEW perspective. Get it?
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 12:04 AM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 1 2012, 11:10 PM)
I'm saying it's an invalid argument.
I think it's perfectly valid, especially in a city so focused on attracting tourist trade.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 12:06 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 01:04 AM)
I think it's perfectly valid, especially in a city so focused on attracting tourist trade.
Good point. Places that attract tourists NEVER have strip clubs. Ugh.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 12:10 AM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 12:06 AM)
Good point. Places that attract tourists NEVER have strip clubs. Ugh.
Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what I said.
Weak.
Posted by: mc46360 Nov 2 2012, 12:19 AM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 01:06 AM)
Good point. Places that attract tourists NEVER have strip clubs. Ugh.
Just want to let you know I at least agree with you MC Born & Raised. It's just another example of people trying to tell others how to live their lives.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 12:26 AM
QUOTE(mc46360 @ Nov 2 2012, 12:19 AM)
Just want to let you know I at least agree with you MC Born & Raised. It's just another example of people trying to tell others how to live their lives.
Nope. It's another example of a city trying to put the best foot forward as for as projecting an image to potential money-spenders.
All you have to do is Google "strips clubs" to find cities all over America trying to ban these places. Why do you think that is? It has nothing to do with "people trying to tell others how to live their lives".
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 12:27 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 01:10 AM)
Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what I said.
Weak.
You said a city so focused on attracting tourist trade shouldn't be interested in a business like this. No? I think yes. Yet, many, many successful tourist areas have strip clubs, wouldn't you say? So, therefore, I would conclude that having a strip club does not preclude an area from being successful in attracting tourists or other tourist trade. Which was exactly my original point.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 12:30 AM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 12:27 AM)
You said a city so focused on attracting tourist trade shouldn't be interested in a business like this. No? I think yes. Yet, many, many successful tourist areas have strip clubs, wouldn't you say? So, therefore, I would conclude that having a strip club does not preclude an area from being successful in attracting tourists or other tourist trade. Which was exactly my original point.
And I would conclude you're wrong. There are indeed places where strip clubs are more part of the fabric of the area they're in. Michigan City is not one of those places. As I stated above, all you have to do is Google around and you'll see cities all over America trying to either ban or keep out strip clubs. Why so you think that is? Because someone "needs to get over themselves"?
And BTW -
"You said a city so focused on attracting tourist trade shouldn't be interested in a business like this."
I never said that.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 12:40 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 01:30 AM)
And I would conclude you're wrong. There are indeed places where strip clubs are more part of the fabric of the area they're in. Michigan City is not one of those places. As I stated above, all you have to do is Google around and you'll see cities all over America trying to either ban or keep out strip clubs. Why so you think that is? Because someone "needs to get over themselves"?
And BTW -
"You said a city so focused on attracting tourist trade shouldn't be interested in a business like this."
I never said that.
Stop using semantics to distract the argument. You said it's a valid argument "in a city so focused on attracting tourist trade." I made no leap in paraphrasing.
And yes, that's exactly what I think is going on in other places. People need to get over themselves. If we could get the same public outcry used against this strip club toward something actually productive like, I don't know, schools, for instance, we'd be much better off.
I just don't understand how it affects anyone. If you don't plan on patronizing the establishment, then don't. Would my quality of life suffer if I moved to a town that had a strip club? I'm thinking not.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 12:43 AM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 12:40 AM)
Stop using semantics to distract the argument. You said it's a valid argument "in a city so focused on attracting tourist trade." I made no leap in paraphrasing.
And yes, that's exactly what I think is going on in other places. People need to get over themselves. If we could get the same public outcry used against this strip club toward something actually productive like, I don't know, schools, for instance, we'd be much better off.
I just don't understand how it affects anyone. If you don't plan on patronizing the establishment, then don't. Would my quality of life suffer if I moved to a town that had a strip club? I'm thinking not.
Yeah, but this isn't about you. This is about the image of the city. I feel a sleazy strip club would be a detriment to the image of Michigan City. So do a lot of people.
"I just don't understand how it affects anyone."
Obviously.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 12:50 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 01:43 AM)
Yeah, but this isn't about you. This is about the image of the city. I feel a sleazy strip club would be a detriment to the image of Michigan City. So do a lot of people.
"I just don't understand how it affects anyone."
Obviously.
I believe the Adult Toy Store had strippers in it for years. I didn't see anybody out there picketing talking about how it was destroying Michigan City. We survived somehow.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 12:53 AM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 12:50 AM)
I believe the Adult Toy Store had strippers in it for years. I didn't see anybody out there picketing talking about how it was destroying Michigan City. We survived somehow.
Who said anything about it destroying MC?
How's this - if you feel MC would be better, or at least not worse, by having a strip club go fight for it. Of course, that's your right. But is legislation to keep this sleaze out of MC a way of telling people how to live their lives?
Nope.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 12:59 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 01:53 AM)
Who said anything about it destroying MC?
How's this - if you feel MC would be better, or at least not worse, by having a strip club go fight for it. Of course, that's your right. But is legislation to keep this sleaze out of MC a way of telling people how to live their lives?
Nope.
You used the word "detriment" which means the state of being harmed or damaged. So, in short, YOU said that.
And we'll just agree to differ on the telling people how to live their lives part.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 01:05 AM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 12:59 AM)
You used the word "detriment" which means the state of being harmed or damaged. So, in short, YOU said that.
And we'll just agree to differ on the telling people how to live their lives part.
"So, in short, YOU said that."
In short, nope. Not unless harmed or damaged mean the same thing as destroyed.
I seriously think MC's concern about sleazy strip clubs has a lot more to do with the effect on our image rather than whether our local citizens go or don't go.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 01:11 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 02:05 AM)
"So, in short, YOU said that."
In short, nope. Not unless harmed or damaged mean the same thing as destroyed.
I seriously think MC's concern about sleazy strip clubs has a lot more to do with the effect on our image rather than whether our local citizens go or don't go.
You wanna play the semantics game, I'll play. Damage has a synonym of "destruction" with a root word "destroy."
Yes, I know, you keep making the image argument. I'm just saying I don't buy it.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 01:15 AM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 01:11 AM)
You wanna play the semantics game, I'll play. Damage has a synonym of "destruction" with a root word "destroy."
Yes, I know, you keep making the image argument. I'm just saying I don't buy it.
"Damage has a synonym of "destruction" "
Not in all cases.
"I'm just saying I don't buy it."
Obviously. A lot of people do, however - hence the opposition.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 01:17 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 02:15 AM)
"Damage has a synonym of "destruction" "
Not in all cases.
"I'm just saying I don't buy it."
Obviously. A lot of people do, however - hence the opposition.
Not in all cases? Huh? Just own what you said, man. Good God.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 01:22 AM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 01:17 AM)
Not in all cases? Huh? Just own what you said, man. Good God.
Don't understand? I'll explain. Take these two sentences -
"His house was damaged in the storm."
"His house was destroyed in the storm."
So, do you really think that saying a house was damaged that means it was destroyed? Really?
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 01:33 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 02:22 AM)
Don't understand? I'll explain. Take these two sentences -
"His house was damaged in the storm."
"His house was destroyed in the storm."
So, do you really think that saying a house was damaged that means it was destroyed? Really?
You're right, my bad. When you said "detriment" I should have known you meant the less-bad kind of detriment.
Look, my ultimate point is this: I love this town and always will, but we get all up in arms about some dumb stuff sometimes. To me, this falls into that category. There are many important things to deal with here, some that get at the very core of what it takes to make it as a people (education, infrastructure, etc.). I just can't justify spending any more time or energy on this issue. If it goes in, fine. If it doesn't, fine. My life won't change one iota either way, and neither will yours. And, in my opinion, the image of Michigan City won't be impacted in the long-term by a place where people dance topless.
Posted by: indianamaniac Nov 2 2012, 01:37 AM
First of all, Tim, your analogy of comparing strip clubs to dealing heroin was faulty bordering on ridiculous.
You'd wish that people used their personal convictions when making financial decisions, but it's pretty obvious that the almighty dollar has come to outweigh morals in today's society whether we're in the United States or Japan. Strip clubs are not illegal and therefore are fair game for someone who wishes to use sex to earn money. Am I at all interested in patronizing a strip club? No, not really. Am I in a position to begrudge someone else the opportunity to open a business that will more than likely be profitable? No, not really.
The better analogy would have been if Smith and Wesson decided they wanted to build a gun factory in Michigan City. As someone who doesn't have a whole lot of use for guns period, I would probably feel pretty strongly that I wouldn't want them being produced in my backyard. Would I lobby against it? No. It's a business that would be pushing tax dollars into the local infrastructure.
If I had my choice on whether we had a strip club or not, my preference would be no. However, making the suggestion that a strip club would be "detrimental" to Michigan City's overall image is suggesting that we are already living in some type of Utopia.
MC Born and Raised's point that it ultimately won't affect those of us who live here is valid. We don't have to go to it, but who are we to begrudge the opportunity for someone to make money just because we're worried about what it will ultimately do to our image? I personally prefer the image of tax dollars being pumped into the system and a few jobs being created.
People like to gamble, people like to drink, people like sex. Our capitalist society has proved more than willing to throw people's convictions by the wayside in return for profits. I don't like it, but it is what it is.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 01:39 AM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 01:33 AM)
You're right, my bad. When you said "detriment" I should have known you meant the less-bad kind of detriment.
Look, my ultimate point is this: I love this town and always will, but we get all up in arms about some dumb stuff sometimes. To me, this falls into that category. There are many important things to deal with here, some that get at the very core of what it takes to make it as a people (education, infrastructure, etc.). I just can't justify spending any more time or energy on this issue. If it goes in, fine. If it doesn't, fine. My life won't change one iota either way, and neither will yours. And, in my opinion, the image of Michigan City won't be impacted in the long-term by a place where people dance topless.
I think the possibility of negative impact is great. So do a lot of people. It's not a point of people "getting over themselves" as you state. It's a point of a city that watched its core economic structure disappear and is trying very hard to hang on to and bolster its current one.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 01:40 AM
QUOTE(indianamaniac @ Nov 2 2012, 02:37 AM)
First of all, Tim, your analogy of comparing strip clubs to dealing heroin was faulty bordering on ridiculous.
You'd wish that people used their personal convictions when making financial decisions, but it's pretty obvious that the almighty dollar has come to outweigh morals in today's society whether we're in the United States or Japan. Strip clubs are not illegal and therefore are fair game for someone who wishes to use sex to earn money. Am I at all interested in patronizing a strip club? No, not really. Am I in a position to begrudge someone else the opportunity to open a business that will more than likely be profitable? No, not really.
The better analogy would have been if Smith and Wesson decided they wanted to build a gun factory in Michigan City. As someone who doesn't have a whole lot of use for guns period, I would probably feel pretty strongly that I wouldn't want them being produced in my backyard. Would I lobby against it? No. It's a business that would be pushing tax dollars into the local infrastructure.
If I had my choice on whether we had a strip club or not, my preference would be no. However, making the suggestion that a strip club would be "detrimental" to Michigan City's overall image is suggesting that we are already living in some type of Utopia.
MC Born and Raised's point that it ultimately won't affect those of us who live here is valid. We don't have to go to it, but who are we to begrudge the opportunity for someone to make money just because we're worried about what it will ultimately do to our image? I personally prefer the image of tax dollars being pumped into the system and a few jobs being created.
People like to gamble, people like to drink, people like sex. Our capitalist society has proved more than willing to throw people's convictions by the wayside in return for profits. I don't like it, but it is what it is.
+1
I like the gun factory analogy. That works well.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 01:43 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 02:39 AM)
I think the possibility of negative impact is great. So do a lot of people. It's not a point of people "getting over themselves" as you state. It's a point of a city that watched its core economic structure disappear and is trying very hard to hang on to and bolster its current one.
But, as I've said, that has existed right here in Michigan City for years. Does the Adult Toy Store (or whatever it's called these days) negatively effect MC's image? Do tourists and other business look at MC and pass because of that place? I can't imagine that's ever happened.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 01:46 AM
QUOTE(indianamaniac @ Nov 2 2012, 01:37 AM)
First of all, Tim, your analogy of comparing strip clubs to dealing heroin was faulty bordering on ridiculous.
You'd wish that people used their personal convictions when making financial decisions, but it's pretty obvious that the almighty dollar has come to outweigh morals in today's society whether we're in the United States or Japan. Strip clubs are not illegal and therefore are fair game for someone who wishes to use sex to earn money. Am I at all interested in patronizing a strip club? No, not really. Am I in a position to begrudge someone else the opportunity to open a business that will more than likely be profitable? No, not really.
The better analogy would have been if Smith and Wesson decided they wanted to build a gun factory in Michigan City. As someone who doesn't have a whole lot of use for guns period, I would probably feel pretty strongly that I wouldn't want them being produced in my backyard. Would I lobby against it? No. It's a business that would be pushing tax dollars into the local infrastructure.
If I had my choice on whether we had a strip club or not, my preference would be no. However, making the suggestion that a strip club would be "detrimental" to Michigan City's overall image is suggesting that we are already living in some type of Utopia.
MC Born and Raised's point that it ultimately won't affect those of us who live here is valid. We don't have to go to it, but who are we to begrudge the opportunity for someone to make money just because we're worried about what it will ultimately do to our image? I personally prefer the image of tax dollars being pumped into the system and a few jobs being created.
People like to gamble, people like to drink, people like sex. Our capitalist society has proved more than willing to throw people's convictions by the wayside in return for profits. I don't like it, but it is what it is.
"First of all, Tim, your analogy of comparing strip clubs to dealing heroin was faulty bordering on ridiculous."
Not in the context of the argument presented.
"making the suggestion that a strip club would be "detrimental" to Michigan City's overall image is suggesting that we are already living in some type of Utopia."
No, it doesn't.
"
MC Born and Raised's point that it ultimately won't affect those of us who live here is valid."
Uh huh. So, if that's true - why all the opposition? If, as you claim, having a sleazy strip club in MC would have no effect, good or bad, why would people care?
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 01:48 AM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 01:43 AM)
But, as I've said, that has existed right here in Michigan City for years. Does the Adult Toy Store (or whatever it's called these days) negatively effect MC's image? Do tourists and other business look at MC and pass because of that place? I can't imagine that's ever happened.
How can you know whether that's true or not? You're just guessing. Maybe everyone is. But there must be a reason for such opposition.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 01:52 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 02:48 AM)
How can you know whether that's true or not? You're just guessing. Maybe everyone is. But there must be a reason for such opposition.
Because they have opinions, just like I do. When I say people need to get over themselves, I'm talking about the moral police who tend to come out and get very loud with issues like this. And those are the people, as mc46360 stated, that like to try and tell people how to live their lives.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 01:56 AM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 01:52 AM)
Because they have opinions, just like I do. When I say people need to get over themselves, I'm talking about the moral police who tend to come out and get very loud with issues like this. And those are the people, as mc46360 stated, that like to try and tell people how to live their lives.
In my opinion this has nothing to do with any kind of moral policing. If someone imposes a speed limit because that speed limit has been proven to save lives is that person trying to tell you how to "live your life"?
Posted by: indianamaniac Nov 2 2012, 02:09 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 02:46 AM)
"First of all, Tim, your analogy of comparing strip clubs to dealing heroin was faulty bordering on ridiculous."
Not in the context of the argument presented.
"making the suggestion that a strip club would be "detrimental" to Michigan City's overall image is suggesting that we are already living in some type of Utopia."
No, it doesn't.
"
MC Born and Raised's point that it ultimately won't affect those of us who live here is valid."
Uh huh. So, if that's true - why all the opposition? If, as you claim, having a sleazy strip club in MC would have no effect, good or bad, why would people care?
Because there's quite an imbalance between morality and reality.
We're worried about kids on a school bus riding by a building with neon lights because of what is happening inside, but our society has little problem with Jersey Shore, a show that promotes drinking and promiscuity, entering our homes on television every single day.
This is real life. Whether we like it or not, it's out there. I have a 5-year-old daughter and day-after-day I try and figure out ways of explaining the world to her without blatantly coming out and saying, "You know dear, our world is f***** up. You're going to have to learn to navigate through it."
Our image is what we make of it. Right now we are a community that has many bigger issues than a strip club. If we'd rally around what we have half as much as we rally against what we don't want, maybe we'd get somewhere.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 02:13 AM
QUOTE(indianamaniac @ Nov 2 2012, 02:09 AM)
Because there's quite an imbalance between morality and reality.
We're worried about kids on a school bus riding by a building with neon lights because of what is happening inside, but our society has little problem with Jersey Shore, a show that promotes drinking and promiscuity, entering our homes on television every single day.
This is real life. Whether we like it or not, it's out there. I have a 5-year-old daughter and day-after-day I try and figure out ways of explaining the world to her without blatantly coming out and saying, "You know dear, our world is f***** up. You're going to have to learn to navigate through it."
Our image is what we make of it. Right now we are a community that has many bigger issues than a strip club. If we'd rally around what we have half as much as we rally against what we don't want, maybe we'd get somewhere.
While I agree there are bigger issues at hand in MC than this strip club situation I don't think that means it's not worthy of examination and debate.
That is what this is all about.
Posted by: indianamaniac Nov 2 2012, 02:46 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 03:13 AM)
While I agree there are bigger issues at hand in MC than this strip club situation I don't think that means it's not worthy of examination and debate.
That is what this is all about.
Okay, and MC Born and Raised made his observation, you countered with a horrible analogy and suggested that the opposition isn't relying on moral objections that society seemingly abandoned a long time ago.
We all get get. You think that that "sleaze" doesn't have a place in your original hometown despite the fact that sexually oriented businesses are nothing new to Michigan City or LaPorte County. The objections are of a moral nature and quite frankly are an example of one group of individuals telling another group of individuals that their way of viewing things is askew.
When the Founding Fathers provided for personal freedoms, including religion, they really didn't take into consideration what was going to happen when the nation became 314 million people. Personal freedoms are something that individuals are more than happy to throw out there until it doesn't suit them. The sooner we realize that people are free to engage in activities that haven't been deemed illegal, the better off we're all going to be.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 02:51 AM
QUOTE(indianamaniac @ Nov 2 2012, 02:46 AM)
Okay, and MC Born and Raised made his observation, you countered with a horrible analogy and suggested that the opposition isn't relying on moral objections that society seemingly abandoned a long time ago.
We all get get. You think that that "sleaze" doesn't have a place in your original hometown despite the fact that sexually oriented businesses are nothing new to Michigan City or LaPorte County. The objections are of a moral nature and quite frankly are an example of one group of individuals telling another group of individuals that their way of viewing things is askew.
When the Founding Fathers provided for personal freedoms, including religion, they really didn't take into consideration what was going to happen when the nation became 314 million people. Personal freedoms are something that individuals are more than happy to throw out there until it doesn't suit them. The sooner we realize that people are free to engage in activities that haven't been deemed illegal, the better off we're all going to be.
"Okay, and MC Born and Raised made his observation, you countered with a horrible analogy and suggested that the opposition isn't relying on moral objections that society seemingly abandoned a long time ago."
Horrible is an opinion-based statement. You have every right to that opinion.
"The sooner we realize that people are free to engage in activities that haven't been deemed illegal, the better off we're all going to be."
Another opinion you have every right to.
"We all get get."
Quite obviously, you do not. I am opposed to a strip club in MC due to its potential damage to our image and, thereby, our ability to make tourist dollars.
Try to get that right next time.
Posted by: indianamaniac Nov 2 2012, 03:10 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 03:51 AM)
"We all get get."
Quite obviously, you do not. I am opposed to a strip club in MC due to its potential damage to our image and, thereby, our ability to make tourist dollars.
Try to get that right next time.
Thanks for clarifying your opinion, which you're entitled to, which I understood in the first place...
I guess I've gotta go sift through MTV's financial reports and find out how much Snooki and JWow cost them because of the image troubles they've caused the network...
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 03:17 AM
QUOTE(indianamaniac @ Nov 2 2012, 03:10 AM)
I guess I've gotta go sift through MTV's financial reports and find out how much Snooki and JWow cost them because of the image troubles they've caused the network...
Um... okay.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 2 2012, 07:32 AM
QUOTE(indianamaniac @ Nov 2 2012, 02:37 AM)
First of all, Tim, your analogy of comparing strip clubs to dealing heroin was faulty bordering on ridiculous.
You'd wish that people used their personal convictions when making financial decisions, but it's pretty obvious that the almighty dollar has come to outweigh morals in today's society whether we're in the United States or Japan. Strip clubs are not illegal and therefore are fair game for someone who wishes to use sex to earn money. Am I at all interested in patronizing a strip club? No, not really. Am I in a position to begrudge someone else the opportunity to open a business that will more than likely be profitable? No, not really.
The better analogy would have been if Smith and Wesson decided they wanted to build a gun factory in Michigan City. As someone who doesn't have a whole lot of use for guns period, I would probably feel pretty strongly that I wouldn't want them being produced in my backyard. Would I lobby against it? No. It's a business that would be pushing tax dollars into the local infrastructure.
If I had my choice on whether we had a strip club or not, my preference would be no. However, making the suggestion that a strip club would be "detrimental" to Michigan City's overall image is suggesting that we are already living in some type of Utopia.
MC Born and Raised's point that it ultimately won't affect those of us who live here is valid. We don't have to go to it, but who are we to begrudge the opportunity for someone to make money just because we're worried about what it will ultimately do to our image? I personally prefer the image of tax dollars being pumped into the system and a few jobs being created.
People like to gamble, people like to drink, people like sex. Our capitalist society has proved more than willing to throw people's convictions by the wayside in return for profits. I don't like it, but it is what it is.
Boy this thread got nice and angry. As a person who is fully against this project, here is how I see it. Does this group have a freedom to open this type of establishment, absolutely they do. Do we have the right to protest it, absolutely we do.
Look, self-image is something this community struggles with on a daily basis, and it translates into how the rest of the world views us. If we don't have standards as a community, no one else will view us with any kind of respect. I really believe we keep getting targeted for sub-ideal industries, because so much of Michigan City views itself as a horrible place to be. If you look at some of our neighbors, places like strip clubs and garbage dumps won't even target their communities because they know they have no chance of getting off of the ground. Do you honestly think this project would get to those point in a place like Chesterton or Valpo?
As to the tax dollars question, yes Michigan City and Laporte County would benefit in terms of tax dollars. But we could also open a nuclear waste dump here and make millions off of tipping fees, that doesn't make it worthwhile to the community. There is more to a community than the almighty dollar. There is nothing wrong with having standards as a community. I really do believe we are better than that. I have said it before, and I will say it again, this community has made some horrible, horrible decisions for its long term planning. Garbage dumps, coal ash depositories, power plants on the beach, selling off an irreplaceable sand dune to make room for what became said power plant. These are the reasons that these type of groups target Michigan City. We have a history of being OK with establishments that are detrimental to our way of life.
If you don't think that this place will have a detriment to us, I also beg to differ. First of all, it is pretty clearly established that things like drugs, excessive alcohol usage, and prostitution follow these places around. That means more police cost, and what will it mean for property values around the area? Anyone here with kids looking to buy a place next to the strip club? Also in terms of economic development, who exactly is going to want to locate another business in that area? Anyone going to want to put in a factory next to the strip club? I can't think of many business owners who are going to want to locate into a community, and move their employees and families here, with places like this as a part of the landscape.
Finally, there were a ton of individual examples of well this is allowed, and this isn't. My point of view is that just because one bad thing is going on, it doesn't open the door to excuse everything else. Just because we have some dive bars that have problems, doesn't excuse a strip club from doing worse. That's the great thing about having a voice, is that you can raise it in objection at anytime. Just because things are bad, doesn't mean you have to let them get worse. And I wish people got as upset about things like our school system and corruption in our local governance, as they are about this place coming to LP Co. It would make our quality of life a lot better if people would raise their standards and realize that the reason things are bad here is because we let them get bad. If we decide that time is over, it will be over. Strong communities have strong reputations.
Posted by: Ang Nov 2 2012, 07:42 AM
QUOTE(indianamaniac @ Nov 2 2012, 03:09 AM)
Because there's quite an imbalance between morality and reality.
We're worried about kids on a school bus riding by a building with neon lights because of what is happening inside, but our society has little problem with Jersey Shore, a show that promotes drinking and promiscuity, entering our homes on television every single day.
This is real life. Whether we like it or not, it's out there. I have a 5-year-old daughter and day-after-day I try and figure out ways of explaining the world to her without blatantly coming out and saying, "You know dear, our world is f***** up. You're going to have to learn to navigate through it."
Our image is what we make of it. Right now we are a community that has many bigger issues than a strip club. If we'd rally around what we have half as much as we rally against what we don't want, maybe we'd get somewhere.
Well said!
Posted by: indianamaniac Nov 2 2012, 11:33 AM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Nov 2 2012, 08:32 AM)
Boy this thread got nice and angry. As a person who is fully against this project, here is how I see it. Does this group have a freedom to open this type of establishment, absolutely they do. Do we have the right to protest it, absolutely we do.
Look, self-image is something this community struggles with on a daily basis, and it translates into how the rest of the world views us. If we don't have standards as a community, no one else will view us with any kind of respect. I really believe we keep getting targeted for sub-ideal industries, because so much of Michigan City views itself as a horrible place to be. If you look at some of our neighbors, places like strip clubs and garbage dumps won't even target their communities because they know they have no chance of getting off of the ground. Do you honestly think this project would get to those point in a place like Chesterton or Valpo?
As to the tax dollars question, yes Michigan City and Laporte County would benefit in terms of tax dollars. But we could also open a nuclear waste dump here and make millions off of tipping fees, that doesn't make it worthwhile to the community. There is more to a community than the almighty dollar. There is nothing wrong with having standards as a community. I really do believe we are better than that. I have said it before, and I will say it again, this community has made some horrible, horrible decisions for its long term planning. Garbage dumps, coal ash depositories, power plants on the beach, selling off an irreplaceable sand dune to make room for what became said power plant. These are the reasons that these type of groups target Michigan City. We have a history of being OK with establishments that are detrimental to our way of life.
If you don't think that this place will have a detriment to us, I also beg to differ. First of all, it is pretty clearly established that things like drugs, excessive alcohol usage, and prostitution follow these places around. That means more police cost, and what will it mean for property values around the area? Anyone here with kids looking to buy a place next to the strip club? Also in terms of economic development, who exactly is going to want to locate another business in that area? Anyone going to want to put in a factory next to the strip club? I can't think of many business owners who are going to want to locate into a community, and move their employees and families here, with places like this as a part of the landscape.
Finally, there were a ton of individual examples of well this is allowed, and this isn't. My point of view is that just because one bad thing is going on, it doesn't open the door to excuse everything else. Just because we have some dive bars that have problems, doesn't excuse a strip club from doing worse. That's the great thing about having a voice, is that you can raise it in objection at anytime. Just because things are bad, doesn't mean you have to let them get worse. And I wish people got as upset about things like our school system and corruption in our local governance, as they are about this place coming to LP Co. It would make our quality of life a lot better if people would raise their standards and realize that the reason things are bad here is because we let them get bad. If we decide that time is over, it will be over. Strong communities have strong reputations.
Southsider, show me the businesses that have shown an interest in coming here. It's not a lack of effort on the part of economic development, it's the fact that there are things that need to be addressed -- schools, unpaid taxes on housing assessments -- before a manufacturer decides to bring themselves in. I love this community to death, but if I'm a corporation and am looking at the current state of affairs, I'm not coming here. Schools and local government are things that you've expressed concern about, and I'm confident that they will be addressed in our slow and archaic ways, but in the interim throwing the kitchen sink at preventing this business just doesn't make sense.
I've said before, I'm with you that Michigan City has been a series of poor decisions. I would rank the landfill at 421 and 94 as the worst, building NIPSCO on the beach in the top five. However, those decisions were hurricanes to a strip club's drizzle. You can't equate the long term ramifications.
People used the increase crime that would go with the opening of the strip club. I can remember the same arguments being made when people opposed the casino. Yes, Michigan City has crime now, but is there more than there was before Blue Chip opened? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I sure don't think there was a legitimate cause and effect. If anything, I'd say that the area surrounding the casino might be safer than it was before the casino was built.
No, you don't see these kinds of proposals in Valparaiso and Chesterton, but you know why? They don't have the same economic problems that we are facing. The money is basically already there. The money isn't here. I wish we had the luxury of being picky, but the economist in you has to recognize that the in flow of money is needed to make more improvements. We need to get our schools out of the red. We need to build the infrastructure. Maybe we need to take a gamble or two despite the fact that many gambles we've taken in the past haven't paid off. Some have, but many haven't.
You talk about a strip club being "detrimental to our way of life." I don't know what that really means besides your believing that a strip club is some sign of the Apocalypse. It is well documented that you are uncomfortable with the casino and it's role as a long term financial benefit to the city. Are casinos and strip clubs the root of all evil? I dunno. Casinos have sure employed a lot of people I know and provided them with a means for clothing and feeding their kids and keeping a roof over their heads. Nobody is going to be forced to work in a strip club and they aren't forced to work in a casino. People aren't forced to patronize them. They aren't going to taint our land like a nuclear waste facility and they aren't going to force us to abandon our personal convictions.
This is all debate. I've said it before, I'll say it again -- I would probably prefer not to have a strip club open shop in town. That said, I wouldn't want a gun factory here. I suppose I don't really like the state prison being here. I really wish we'd explore building a new prison south of town and free up what could be some prime real estate just minutes from all of our attractions. It's ambitious, but those are the types of ideas that I think we would be better served exploring than putting up a roadblock to tax dollars and employment because we're worried about our image and "our way of life."
Posted by: Grammy515 Nov 2 2012, 11:59 AM
very well said...
QUOTE(indianamaniac @ Nov 2 2012, 12:33 PM)
Southsider, show me the businesses that have shown an interest in coming here. It's not a lack of effort on the part of economic development, it's the fact that there are things that need to be addressed -- schools, unpaid taxes on housing assessments -- before a manufacturer decides to bring themselves in. I love this community to death, but if I'm a corporation and am looking at the current state of affairs, I'm not coming here. Schools and local government are things that you've expressed concern about, and I'm confident that they will be addressed in our slow and archaic ways, but in the interim throwing the kitchen sink at preventing this business just doesn't make sense.
I've said before, I'm with you that Michigan City has been a series of poor decisions. I would rank the landfill at 421 and 94 as the worst, building NIPSCO on the beach in the top five. However, those decisions were hurricanes to a strip club's drizzle. You can't equate the long term ramifications.
People used the increase crime that would go with the opening of the strip club. I can remember the same arguments being made when people opposed the casino. Yes, Michigan City has crime now, but is there more than there was before Blue Chip opened? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I sure don't think there was a legitimate cause and effect. If anything, I'd say that the area surrounding the casino might be safer than it was before the casino was built.
No, you don't see these kinds of proposals in Valparaiso and Chesterton, but you know why? They don't have the same economic problems that we are facing. The money is basically already there. The money isn't here. I wish we had the luxury of being picky, but the economist in you has to recognize that the in flow of money is needed to make more improvements. We need to get our schools out of the red. We need to build the infrastructure. Maybe we need to take a gamble or two despite the fact that many gambles we've taken in the past haven't paid off. Some have, but many haven't.
You talk about a strip club being "detrimental to our way of life." I don't know what that really means besides your believing that a strip club is some sign of the Apocalypse. It is well documented that you are uncomfortable with the casino and it's role as a long term financial benefit to the city. Are casinos and strip clubs the root of all evil? I dunno. Casinos have sure employed a lot of people I know and provided them with a means for clothing and feeding their kids and keeping a roof over their heads. Nobody is going to be forced to work in a strip club and they aren't forced to work in a casino. People aren't forced to patronize them. They aren't going to taint our land like a nuclear waste facility and they aren't going to force us to abandon our personal convictions.
This is all debate. I've said it before, I'll say it again -- I would probably prefer not to have a strip club open shop in town. That said, I wouldn't want a gun factory here. I suppose I don't really like the state prison being here. I really wish we'd explore building a new prison south of town and free up what could be some prime real estate just minutes from all of our attractions. It's ambitious, but those are the types of ideas that I think we would be better served exploring than putting up a roadblock to tax dollars and employment because we're worried about our image and "our way of life."
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 2 2012, 12:15 PM
QUOTE(indianamaniac @ Nov 2 2012, 12:33 PM)
Southsider, show me the businesses that have shown an interest in coming here. It's not a lack of effort on the part of economic development, it's the fact that there are things that need to be addressed -- schools, unpaid taxes on housing assessments -- before a manufacturer decides to bring themselves in. I love this community to death, but if I'm a corporation and am looking at the current state of affairs, I'm not coming here. Schools and local government are things that you've expressed concern about, and I'm confident that they will be addressed in our slow and archaic ways, but in the interim throwing the kitchen sink at preventing this business just doesn't make sense.
I've said before, I'm with you that Michigan City has been a series of poor decisions. I would rank the landfill at 421 and 94 as the worst, building NIPSCO on the beach in the top five. However, those decisions were hurricanes to a strip club's drizzle. You can't equate the long term ramifications.
People used the increase crime that would go with the opening of the strip club. I can remember the same arguments being made when people opposed the casino. Yes, Michigan City has crime now, but is there more than there was before Blue Chip opened? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I sure don't think there was a legitimate cause and effect. If anything, I'd say that the area surrounding the casino might be safer than it was before the casino was built.
No, you don't see these kinds of proposals in Valparaiso and Chesterton, but you know why? They don't have the same economic problems that we are facing. The money is basically already there. The money isn't here. I wish we had the luxury of being picky, but the economist in you has to recognize that the in flow of money is needed to make more improvements. We need to get our schools out of the red. We need to build the infrastructure. Maybe we need to take a gamble or two despite the fact that many gambles we've taken in the past haven't paid off. Some have, but many haven't.
You talk about a strip club being "detrimental to our way of life." I don't know what that really means besides your believing that a strip club is some sign of the Apocalypse. It is well documented that you are uncomfortable with the casino and it's role as a long term financial benefit to the city. Are casinos and strip clubs the root of all evil? I dunno. Casinos have sure employed a lot of people I know and provided them with a means for clothing and feeding their kids and keeping a roof over their heads. Nobody is going to be forced to work in a strip club and they aren't forced to work in a casino. People aren't forced to patronize them. They aren't going to taint our land like a nuclear waste facility and they aren't going to force us to abandon our personal convictions.
This is all debate. I've said it before, I'll say it again -- I would probably prefer not to have a strip club open shop in town. That said, I wouldn't want a gun factory here. I suppose I don't really like the state prison being here. I really wish we'd explore building a new prison south of town and free up what could be some prime real estate just minutes from all of our attractions. It's ambitious, but those are the types of ideas that I think we would be better served exploring than putting up a roadblock to tax dollars and employment because we're worried about our image and "our way of life."
The property tax situation, while a mess, has really only had an effect on things for 2-3 years now. The situation has been around for five years, but it wasn't until after the initial court case that it really screwed the county up. The employment situation here has been circling the drain here for a few decades now. The thing is 30/40 or more years ago we were Chesterton or Valpo. Hell we were better than those places in terms of places to live. We were an "All American City". Just ask the "it'll never be like the old days" crowd. They will tell you all about. What separated us from those locations? It wasn't the economy. We all have seen the same economic conditions over the last few decades. The same manufacturing and industrial bases are what put all of NWI on the map. Chesterton and Valpo all faced the same economy as Michigan City did over our lifetime.
The difference has been how leadership's have responded to these wide ranging changes over these past few decades. It is these very micro and individual decisions, that when taken all together as a sum, become our history, and form what is our community today. Those communities decided that theirs would be a community of higher standards. We have historically sold out for dollars. Places like Chesterton and Valpo didn't inherit wealth from a rich uncle. They made the right choices. We did not.
Like I said before, there are plenty of ways to attract more dollars. We could open up a nuclear waste dump in Washington Park. We would make millions of dollars every single year from tipping fees, and everything else. Heck the casino was supposed to be the thing that saved us. It was supposed to rebuild our infrastructure and save our schools. Instead today it is paying for basic budgetary daily operations items, and our schools are $175 million in debt.
Will this facility opening up (and it will, trust me) be the death knell of LaPorte County and Michigan City? No it won't. But it will not help turn things around either. In fact it will be a hindrance, just like many of the other stupid mistakes we made as a community all in the name of making some money. It will be an economic death for the area it is in. How many businesses and homes do you know that want to locate around a strip club? Sure we will make a few bucks off it. I'm sure we make good property tax money off of NIPSCO as well. That doesn't make it a worthwhile decision. You can have economic growth and still have standards. Other communities do this just fine.
Posted by: indianamaniac Nov 2 2012, 12:36 PM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Nov 2 2012, 01:15 PM)
The property tax situation, while a mess, has really only had an effect on things for 2-3 years now. The situation has been around for five years, but it wasn't until after the initial court case that it really screwed the county up. The employment situation here has been circling the drain here for a few decades now. The thing is 30/40 or more years ago we were Chesterton or Valpo. Hell we were better than those places in terms of places to live. We were an "All American City". Just ask the "it'll never be like the old days" crowd. They will tell you all about. What separated us from those locations? It wasn't the economy. We all have seen the same economic conditions over the last few decades. The same manufacturing and industrial bases are what put all of NWI on the map. Chesterton and Valpo all faced the same economy as Michigan City did over our lifetime.
The difference has been how leadership's have responded to these wide ranging changes over these past few decades. It is these very micro and individual decisions, that when taken all together as a sum, become our history, and form what is our community today. Those communities decided that theirs would be a community of higher standards. We have historically sold out for dollars. Places like Chesterton and Valpo didn't inherit wealth from a rich uncle. They made the right choices. We did not.
Like I said before, there are plenty of ways to attract more dollars. We could open up a nuclear waste dump in Washington Park. We would make millions of dollars every single year from tipping fees, and everything else. Heck the casino was supposed to be the thing that saved us. It was supposed to rebuild our infrastructure and save our schools. Instead today it is paying for basic budgetary daily operations items, and our schools are $175 million in debt.
Will this facility opening up (and it will, trust me) be the death knell of LaPorte County and Michigan City? No it won't. But it will not help turn things around either. In fact it will be a hindrance, just like many of the other stupid mistakes we made as a community all in the name of making some money. It will be an economic death for the area it is in. How many businesses and homes do you know that want to locate around a strip club? Sure we will make a few bucks off it. I'm sure we make good property tax money off of NIPSCO as well. That doesn't make it a worthwhile decision. You can have economic growth and still have standards. Other communities do this just fine.
Okay, so how do we go about bringing back manufacturing? Everybody tells me that the loss of manufacturing is what has caused Michigan City to go in the tank. How do we - on a local level - compete with foreign production and technology that has made jobs that were once necessary, unnecessary? The career center got shot down a few years back. Probably would've helped. Desired jobs aren't going to instantly appear or re-appear.
In regards to the proposed location on 35, what houses are going to be built there? What other businesses are looking to go there? If I understand correctly, the area can't have a factory because of its location on the approach to the airport. I also don't see houses being built there. If there was significant value to the area, why hasn't it been included in the urban sprawl over the past 30-40-50 years?
As long as I bring up the sprawl, also answer this... Why is it that Michigan City's population has steadily declined, yet the building of new business continues to bring Michigan City and Westville closer and closer? Go back to when we were an "All-American City" and the southern tips of Michigan City was basically Coolspring Ave. Now we're south of 94. Why has it taken this long to get people concerned about what we're building and where? We have abandoned building after abandoned building on the north end and still, we're building south. If a population is declining, why are we spreading out?
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 2 2012, 01:05 PM
QUOTE(indianamaniac @ Nov 2 2012, 01:36 PM)
Okay, so how do we go about bringing back manufacturing? Everybody tells me that the loss of manufacturing is what has caused Michigan City to go in the tank. How do we - on a local level - compete with foreign production and technology that has made jobs that were once necessary, unnecessary? The career center got shot down a few years back. Probably would've helped. Desired jobs aren't going to instantly appear or re-appear.
In regards to the proposed location on 35, what houses are going to be built there? What other businesses are looking to go there? If I understand correctly, the area can't have a factory because of its location on the approach to the airport. I also don't see houses being built there. If there was significant value to the area, why hasn't it been included in the urban sprawl over the past 30-40-50 years?
As long as I bring up the sprawl, also answer this... Why is it that Michigan City's population has steadily declined, yet the building of new business continues to bring Michigan City and Westville closer and closer? Go back to when we were an "All-American City" and the southern tips of Michigan City was basically Coolspring Ave. Now we're south of 94. Why has it taken this long to get people concerned about what we're building and where? We have abandoned building after abandoned building on the north end and still, we're building south. If a population is declining, why are we spreading out?
How did Chesterton and Valpo survive the same economic circumstances? They were just as dependent on the same basic industries that we were. They survived because their basic decision making as a community was frankly way better than ours was. They didn't sell out to the first industries offering cash.
As to the location of the club, nothing is going to locate in the area now. We have seen growth in that area in the last 10-15 years, including a great local business in Serenity Springs. I'm sure they will love their new neighbors.
The reason companies build new buildings instead of taking possession of old ones is very much based on taxes. It is much more profitable to take a new building, complete with new construction and tax abatement's, along with TIF money, than to take up in an older building, where you don't get depreciation, and you probably aren't getting those other incentives. Even the Kohl's project is seeing the destruction of the existing complex before they build their own facility from scratch. It is a super-popular technique with national chains who are in their active expansion stages.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 03:52 PM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Nov 2 2012, 07:32 AM)
Boy this thread got nice and angry.
You're welcome. lol
Total agreeance, SS.
Regarding manufacturing coming back, there's about as much chance of that happening as my original hair color coming back. Michigan City, for better or worse, needs to focus on how it makes money now - and stop crying about how it isn't making money like it did 30 years ago.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 03:58 PM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 04:52 PM)
You're welcome. lol
Total agreeance, SS.
Regarding manufacturing coming back, there's about as much chance of that happening as my original hair color coming back. Michigan City, for better or worse, needs to focus on how it makes money now - and stop crying about how it isn't making money like it did 30 years ago.
OMG ... did we just agree on something? Can we forget that happened?
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 04:06 PM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 03:58 PM)
OMG ... did we just agree on something? Can we forget that happened?
What?
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Nov 2 2012, 04:07 PM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 2 2012, 05:06 PM)
What?
"Michigan City, for better or worse, needs to focus on how it makes money now - and stop crying about how it isn't making money like it did 30 years ago."
That.
Posted by: Tim Nov 2 2012, 04:12 PM
QUOTE(MC Born & Raised @ Nov 2 2012, 04:07 PM)
"Michigan City, for better or worse, needs to focus on how it makes money now - and stop crying about how it isn't making money like it did 30 years ago."
That.
Folks are ice-skating in hell. lol
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 2 2012, 04:43 PM
Throw me into that agreement. The manufacturing and industry of our grandparents is dead and buried.
Posted by: jkeppen Nov 3 2012, 08:18 PM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Nov 2 2012, 05:43 PM)
Throw me into that agreement. The manufacturing and industry of our grandparents is dead and buried.
Wasn't that the whole meaning behind the right to work being passed? To bring manufacturing industries to the state? Why not Michigan City? We have great shipping routes with 94 being right here as well as the freight rail road? So i ask why not here? What can we do to attract these industries here? If you ask me this is where if we had invested in the futures of my generation with things such as the career center they'd be flocking here but we didn't. Now we're paying the price for our own arrogance of the early 2000's and late 90's.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 5 2012, 09:03 AM
QUOTE(jkeppen @ Nov 3 2012, 08:18 PM)
Wasn't that the whole meaning behind the right to work being passed? To bring manufacturing industries to the state? Why not Michigan City? We have great shipping routes with 94 being right here as well as the freight rail road? So i ask why not here? What can we do to attract these industries here? If you ask me this is where if we had invested in the futures of my generation with things such as the career center they'd be flocking here but we didn't. Now we're paying the price for our own arrogance of the early 2000's and late 90's.
The career center was going to be tough to pass with the amount of debt that Michael Harding had already added to the school system. Add to that fact that no one trusted or like Harding anyway, and that is how it got voted down by a 2:1 margin.
Posted by: jkeppen Nov 8 2012, 06:23 PM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Nov 5 2012, 09:03 AM)
The career center was going to be tough to pass with the amount of debt that Michael Harding had already added to the school system. Add to that fact that no one trusted or like Harding anyway, and that is how it got voted down by a 2:1 margin.
Well once again we've destroyed the future of our city by not spending money in the current times. It's a return on investment that would have paid huge dividends in the end.
Posted by: Commuter Nov 8 2012, 08:49 PM
I just read this entire thread.
A town's tourist trade isn't all craft shoppers looking for stuffed geese in gingham dresses and bonnets with little signs around their necks that say "Welcome Friends."
Some tourists want to have a little fun too. I see nothing wrong with adult businesses -- properly zoned and licensed.
Posted by: Ang Nov 9 2012, 07:57 AM
QUOTE(Commuter @ Nov 8 2012, 08:49 PM)
I just read this entire thread.
A town's tourist trade isn't all craft shoppers looking for stuffed geese in gingham dresses and bonnets with little signs around their necks that say "Welcome Friends."
Some tourists want to have a little fun too. I see nothing wrong with adult businesses -- properly zoned and licensed.
+1
Posted by: taxthedeer Nov 11 2012, 09:53 AM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Nov 5 2012, 09:03 AM)
The career center was going to be tough to pass with the amount of debt that Michael Harding had already added to the school system. Add to that fact that no one trusted or like Harding anyway, and that is how it got voted down by a 2:1 margin.
Not to mention that we have a school board that is so old that back when they attended Elston High School the abacus was considered to be state of the art.
Posted by: Tim Nov 11 2012, 03:51 PM
QUOTE(Commuter @ Nov 8 2012, 08:49 PM)
I just read this entire thread.
A town's tourist trade isn't all craft shoppers looking for stuffed geese in gingham dresses and bonnets with little signs around their necks that say "Welcome Friends."
Some tourists want to have a little fun too. I see nothing wrong with adult businesses -- properly zoned and licensed.
Have you done any research on the secondary effects of strip clubs on neighborhoods?
There's a reason people don't was these sleaze halls in MC.
Posted by: Commuter Nov 11 2012, 08:23 PM
I don't have to do secondary research.
Primary research (what you see today, as in now) on what happens to a post-industrial rust-belt town is sufficient.
I read the papers. In LaPorte, people are up in arms about a food storage development at Kingsbury -- fearing that big trucks will ruin the ambiance of downtown LaPorte.
Michigan City has the same problem. People want manufacturing jobs to come back. They want clean air and peace and quiet. They want low crime and good schools. But Michigan City (like many other towns in this demographic) hasn't delivered. It's a scary place to be (the position, not the town).
Last time I looked, manufacturing jobs in the USA DO NOT EXIST unless the factory's output is either too time sensitive (fresh foods, Just-in-time products/demand products) to risk spoilage/time irrelevance on a container ship/train/truck from the Far East, or the output has to be made in America to satisfy some government requirement for raw materials/production sourced in/from the USA (translation: anti-competitive protectionist subsidies).
Beyond that, a company's labor expense in the USA is just too high to be competitive when labor costs in China and India are a tiny fraction of even NON-UNION wages here in the USA (source: US Bureau of Labor Statistics).
After WWII, European manufacturing capacity was pretty much destroyed. The USA was the only game in town. From 1948 to the mid/late 1960s (but with decline beginning in the late 1950s), the US had a near monopoly on manufacturing for global markets, while Japan and Europe rebuilt.
Since 1970, US manufacturing as a percentage of global production has shrunk. China and most Pacific Rim countries were good for textiles, spices, and exotic woods and that's about it -- until American/European entrepreneurs realized the commercial potential of creating the world's goods for a fraction of the labor costs (and fraction of regulatory, liability, human rights, environmental costs) of developed countries like the USA.
Enter China (population 3 billion) and India (population 1.3 billion) compared to the USA's paltry 290 million population and the handwriting was on the wall for us.
Today, our total hourly averagel labor costs are among the world's highest -- upwards of $35 an hour.
Japan, once the only real competitor to the USA, comes in at about $27.80. Taiwan comes in at about $8.68. Philippines, $1.68. China's coastal manufacturing costs are about $1.30 -- which is about 30% higher than 2008 costs -- since the new middle class over there and new domestic economy has put upward pressure on domestic wages. Did you know that the big three sell more cars there than here but the average wage is still less than $2 an hour? India still comes in even LOWER -- at about $1.00 an hour far inland.
Now, I believe that Federal Mogul/Anco just ceased operations here. I believe they are moving to Mexico -- where the average labor rate is around $6.
Read all about it here: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ichcc.pdf
I didn't even go into child labor rates, but you can read all about THAT here: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_chi_lab_rat_man-labor-child-rate-manufacturing
In other words, manufacturing won't be coming back here unless Americans learn that just about everything they buy is manufactured by people who might as well be slaves by our standards -- in wages, hours worked, output demanded, benefits received, job security, job safety, environmental safety, civil rights, freedom to move, freedom from exploitation/sexual harassment etc.
In short, don't hold your breath -- the jobs ain't comin back here unless something terrible happens over there.
The nice part is that if you are into stock, most if not many of the countries that manufacture there are OWNED here, so you can at least have some ownership equity (dividends) to supplement your income -- and just look the other way at the ages of the people whose efforts make the green flow more comfortably into your portfolio.
So, Michigan City did something wise. They allowed a casino. AT LEAST we have a casino. And a marina. And we have a nifty railroad that gets all kind of federal, state and local money. And some heavy industry thanks to the railroads. And proximity to Chicago to attract shoppers. These visitors buy gas and food and get speeding tickets and buy real estate and help contribute.
We'd probably get MORE people moving here if the schools didn't SCUK. But they do and they always have. Michigan City (in my humble opinion) has always been a school system that seems to attract creeps -- so that the actions of a few taint the good intentions of the majority. I DO hope that changes.
If they could do a good housecleaning and get the creeps out the school system, that might interest people to at least move here.
Since manufacturing WILL NOT be returning here in all likelihood, we have to look at alternatives.
Why NOT allow a strip club? It's better than a tombstone.
Posted by: MCRogers1974 Nov 11 2012, 08:58 PM
QUOTE(Commuter @ Nov 11 2012, 09:23 PM)
I don't have to do secondary research.
Primary research (what you see today, as in now) on what happens to a post-industrial rust-belt town is sufficient.
I read the papers. In LaPorte, people are up in arms about a food storage development at Kingsbury -- fearing that big trucks will ruin the ambiance of downtown LaPorte.
Michigan City has the same problem. People want manufacturing jobs to come back. They want clean air and peace and quiet. They want low crime and good schools. But Michigan City (like many other towns in this demographic) hasn't delivered. It's a scary place to be (the position, not the town).
Last time I looked, manufacturing jobs in the USA DO NOT EXIST unless the factory's output is either too time sensitive (fresh foods, Just-in-time products/demand products) to risk spoilage/time irrelevance on a container ship/train/truck from the Far East, or the output has to be made in America to satisfy some government requirement for raw materials/production sourced in/from the USA (translation: anti-competitive protectionist subsidies).
Beyond that, a company's labor expense in the USA is just too high to be competitive when labor costs in China and India are a tiny fraction of even NON-UNION wages here in the USA (source: US Bureau of Labor Statistics).
After WWII, European manufacturing capacity was pretty much destroyed. The USA was the only game in town. From 1948 to the mid/late 1960s (but with decline beginning in the late 1950s), the US had a near monopoly on manufacturing for global markets, while Japan and Europe rebuilt.
Since 1970, US manufacturing as a percentage of global production has shrunk. China and most Pacific Rim countries were good for textiles, spices, and exotic woods and that's about it -- until American/European entrepreneurs realized the commercial potential of creating the world's goods for a fraction of the labor costs (and fraction of regulatory, liability, human rights, environmental costs) of developed countries like the USA.
Enter China (population 3 billion) and India (population 1.3 billion) compared to the USA's paltry 290 million population and the handwriting was on the wall for us.
Today, our total hourly averagel labor costs are among the world's highest -- upwards of $35 an hour.
Japan, once the only real competitor to the USA, comes in at about $27.80. Taiwan comes in at about $8.68. Philippines, $1.68. China's coastal manufacturing costs are about $1.30 -- which is about 30% higher than 2008 costs -- since the new middle class over there and new domestic economy has put upward pressure on domestic wages. Did you know that the big three sell more cars there than here but the average wage is still less than $2 an hour? India still comes in even LOWER -- at about $1.00 an hour far inland.
Now, I believe that Federal Mogul/Anco just ceased operations here. I believe they are moving to Mexico -- where the average labor rate is around $6.
Read all about it here: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ichcc.pdf
I didn't even go into child labor rates, but you can read all about THAT here: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_chi_lab_rat_man-labor-child-rate-manufacturing
In other words, manufacturing won't be coming back here unless Americans learn that just about everything they buy is manufactured by people who might as well be slaves by our standards -- in wages, hours worked, output demanded, benefits received, job security, job safety, environmental safety, civil rights, freedom to move, freedom from exploitation/sexual harassment etc.
In short, don't hold your breath -- the jobs ain't comin back here unless something terrible happens over there.
The nice part is that if you are into stock, most if not many of the countries that manufacture there are OWNED here, so you can at least have some ownership equity (dividends) to supplement your income -- and just look the other way at the ages of the people whose efforts make the green flow more comfortably into your portfolio.
So, Michigan City did something wise. They allowed a casino. AT LEAST we have a casino. And a marina. And we have a nifty railroad that gets all kind of federal, state and local money. And some heavy industry thanks to the railroads. And proximity to Chicago to attract shoppers. These visitors buy gas and food and get speeding tickets and buy real estate and help contribute.
We'd probably get MORE people moving here if the schools didn't SCUK. But they do and they always have. Michigan City (in my humble opinion) has always been a school system that seems to attract creeps -- so that the actions of a few taint the good intentions of the majority. I DO hope that changes.
If they could do a good housecleaning and get the creeps out the school system, that might interest people to at least move here.
Since manufacturing WILL NOT be returning here in all likelihood, we have to look at alternatives.
Why NOT allow a strip club? It's better than a tombstone.
Well said - Painful but well said.
Posted by: Tim Nov 11 2012, 09:48 PM
QUOTE(Commuter @ Nov 11 2012, 08:23 PM)
Why NOT allow a strip club?
Plenty of reasons. Research indicates that.
But I guess you don't have to do that.
Posted by: Commuter Nov 11 2012, 11:21 PM
Cite your sources. I listed mine.
Posted by: Tim Nov 12 2012, 01:14 AM
QUOTE(Commuter @ Nov 11 2012, 11:21 PM)
Cite your sources. I listed mine.
You posted sources about strip clubs? Where?
Everything you said is probably right. I didn't bother reading it because it has nothing to do with the strip club situation.
Tell you what - Google "strip clubs drugs prostitution". I did. The adverse effect of strip clubs on communities is obvious.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 12 2012, 07:58 AM
QUOTE(Commuter @ Nov 11 2012, 08:23 PM)
I don't have to do secondary research.
Primary research (what you see today, as in now) on what happens to a post-industrial rust-belt town is sufficient.
I read the papers. In LaPorte, people are up in arms about a food storage development at Kingsbury -- fearing that big trucks will ruin the ambiance of downtown LaPorte.
Michigan City has the same problem. People want manufacturing jobs to come back. They want clean air and peace and quiet. They want low crime and good schools. But Michigan City (like many other towns in this demographic) hasn't delivered. It's a scary place to be (the position, not the town).
Last time I looked, manufacturing jobs in the USA DO NOT EXIST unless the factory's output is either too time sensitive (fresh foods, Just-in-time products/demand products) to risk spoilage/time irrelevance on a container ship/train/truck from the Far East, or the output has to be made in America to satisfy some government requirement for raw materials/production sourced in/from the USA (translation: anti-competitive protectionist subsidies).
Beyond that, a company's labor expense in the USA is just too high to be competitive when labor costs in China and India are a tiny fraction of even NON-UNION wages here in the USA (source: US Bureau of Labor Statistics).
After WWII, European manufacturing capacity was pretty much destroyed. The USA was the only game in town. From 1948 to the mid/late 1960s (but with decline beginning in the late 1950s), the US had a near monopoly on manufacturing for global markets, while Japan and Europe rebuilt.
Since 1970, US manufacturing as a percentage of global production has shrunk. China and most Pacific Rim countries were good for textiles, spices, and exotic woods and that's about it -- until American/European entrepreneurs realized the commercial potential of creating the world's goods for a fraction of the labor costs (and fraction of regulatory, liability, human rights, environmental costs) of developed countries like the USA.
Enter China (population 3 billion) and India (population 1.3 billion) compared to the USA's paltry 290 million population and the handwriting was on the wall for us.
Today, our total hourly averagel labor costs are among the world's highest -- upwards of $35 an hour.
Japan, once the only real competitor to the USA, comes in at about $27.80. Taiwan comes in at about $8.68. Philippines, $1.68. China's coastal manufacturing costs are about $1.30 -- which is about 30% higher than 2008 costs -- since the new middle class over there and new domestic economy has put upward pressure on domestic wages. Did you know that the big three sell more cars there than here but the average wage is still less than $2 an hour? India still comes in even LOWER -- at about $1.00 an hour far inland.
Now, I believe that Federal Mogul/Anco just ceased operations here. I believe they are moving to Mexico -- where the average labor rate is around $6.
Read all about it here: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ichcc.pdf
I didn't even go into child labor rates, but you can read all about THAT here: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_chi_lab_rat_man-labor-child-rate-manufacturing
In other words, manufacturing won't be coming back here unless Americans learn that just about everything they buy is manufactured by people who might as well be slaves by our standards -- in wages, hours worked, output demanded, benefits received, job security, job safety, environmental safety, civil rights, freedom to move, freedom from exploitation/sexual harassment etc.
In short, don't hold your breath -- the jobs ain't comin back here unless something terrible happens over there.
The nice part is that if you are into stock, most if not many of the countries that manufacture there are OWNED here, so you can at least have some ownership equity (dividends) to supplement your income -- and just look the other way at the ages of the people whose efforts make the green flow more comfortably into your portfolio.
So, Michigan City did something wise. They allowed a casino. AT LEAST we have a casino. And a marina. And we have a nifty railroad that gets all kind of federal, state and local money. And some heavy industry thanks to the railroads. And proximity to Chicago to attract shoppers. These visitors buy gas and food and get speeding tickets and buy real estate and help contribute.
We'd probably get MORE people moving here if the schools didn't SCUK. But they do and they always have. Michigan City (in my humble opinion) has always been a school system that seems to attract creeps -- so that the actions of a few taint the good intentions of the majority. I DO hope that changes.
If they could do a good housecleaning and get the creeps out the school system, that might interest people to at least move here.
Since manufacturing WILL NOT be returning here in all likelihood, we have to look at alternatives.
Why NOT allow a strip club? It's better than a tombstone.
If having industry and manufacturing were a death sentence from the 70's, how is it that so many surrounding communities who depended on the exact same basic working classifications managed to survive and thrive while we failed? I don't buy the all there is is strip clubs idea, because how many towns around us have had to go to strip clubs to survive? A large part of where we are as a community has been because of shortsighted political decision making. Chesterton, Valpo, Portage, etc were all towns that two generations ago were far behind City in quality of life. They were reliant on the same things that we were, and yet they aren't full of strip clubs to survive. We don't have to be either. How did the towns around us become successful suburbanite areas, but we can't? I don't buy it.
Posted by: Ang Nov 12 2012, 08:48 AM
Demographics.
People who live in the those areas are more affluent. They are closer to Chicago and many big city workers live there, so there is more money to spend in the local economy.
Less drugs and less crime.
Better Schools
Better leaders in government
No "run down" areas
A police department that the "bad folks" fear
Lots more retail stores and big box Low-price stores
Better streets (streets in better condition-not all tore up and bumpy)
Wider streets for easier navigation
There is a myriad of reasons why. Face it, when it comes to the term "epic fail," LaPorte county is right up there. I say the county, because these problems are not just limited to MC, but LP as well. LP is the county seat and it is one of the most run down towns in the whole county. Hardly any retail to speak of, and they roll up the sidewalks at 9 pm. Try getting gas in LaPorte at 10 pm......I think there are only THREE gas stations in the whole town that are open that late, but maybe only two. At least only two come to mind, but someone told me about a third.
So, those other towns of which you speak have better leadership, better ideas, better citizens and therefore a better quality of life.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 12 2012, 08:59 AM
QUOTE(Ang @ Nov 12 2012, 08:48 AM)
Demographics.
People who live in the those areas are more affluent. They are closer to Chicago and many big city workers live there, so there is more money to spend in the local economy.
Less drugs and less crime.
Better Schools
Better leaders in government
No "run down" areas
A police department that the "bad folks" fear
Lots more retail stores and big box Low-price stores
Better streets (streets in better condition-not all tore up and bumpy)
Wider streets for easier navigation
There is a myriad of reasons why. Face it, when it comes to the term "epic fail," LaPorte county is right up there. I say the county, because these problems are not just limited to MC, but LP as well. LP is the county seat and it is one of the most run down towns in the whole county. Hardly any retail to speak of, and they roll up the sidewalks at 9 pm. Try getting gas in LaPorte at 10 pm......I think there are only THREE gas stations in the whole town that are open that late, but maybe only two. At least only two come to mind, but someone told me about a third.
So, those other towns of which you speak have better leadership, better ideas, better citizens and therefore a better quality of life.
Most of that was not true as short as two generations ago. It might be true today, but not in the 60's and into the 70's. (well except for the obvious geographic one) My whole point is that these towns faced the same economy we did, and made better decisions than we did, which is why today we are behind them in many basic standard of living issues. The communities I have highlighted didn't prostitute themselves out for the first dollars offered to their community. They all turned out just fine. Michigan City needs to start taking some clues from those towns and start making better decisions.
Posted by: Ang Nov 12 2012, 09:22 AM
It began with crime. Our crime rate is much higher than similar communities near us. And it's steadily increasing. I'm not sure what the MCPD can do differently to suppress it short of enacting marshall law (I'm not joking either).
Remember those riots 30 years ago? Well, it ain't got any better. Plus, there is so much racial tension in this town that we are unable to move forward.
I don't think a strip club will improve our economy, but I think it's a wasted effort to try to block it.
I'm with Mike in that we need to focus on the youth, and elimiting crime. MC has always had the nickname of Little Gary, while Gary has the nickname of Little Chicago......it's proving true once again and the people need to forget about color, need to stop sweating the small stuff and concentrate on making the community a place where people want to come. Jerry Keppen said in another thread (I think I got his point correctly).....What difference will a strip club make in the grand scheme of things with people are already afraid to shop here and tourist here because they fear for their lives or their wallets (I definitely paraphrased that one! Jerry, I hope I got your point correctly). Who wants to come to a town where people can't sit in their own homes with out being shot, raped, or brutally murdered?
A strip club isn't going to make that worse....it's already worse.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 12 2012, 09:37 AM
QUOTE(Ang @ Nov 12 2012, 09:22 AM)
It began with crime. Our crime rate is much higher than similar communities near us. And it's steadily increasing. I'm not sure what the MCPD can do differently to suppress it short of enacting marshall law (I'm not joking either).
Remember those riots 30 years ago? Well, it ain't got any better. Plus, there is so much racial tension in this town that we are unable to move forward.
I don't think a strip club will improve our economy, but I think it's a wasted effort to try to block it.
I'm with Mike in that we need to focus on the youth, and elimiting crime. MC has always had the nickname of Little Gary, while Gary has the nickname of Little Chicago......it's proving true once again and the people need to forget about color, need to stop sweating the small stuff and concentrate on making the community a place where people want to come. Jerry Keppen said in another thread (I think I got his point correctly).....What difference will a strip club make in the grand scheme of things with people are already afraid to shop here and tourist here because they fear for their lives or their wallets (I definitely paraphrased that one! Jerry, I hope I got your point correctly). Who wants to come to a town where people can't sit in their own homes with out being shot, raped, or brutally murdered?
A strip club isn't going to make that worse....it's already worse.
Again my simple point for how desirable a place like this is would be to ask, would you buy a house, or open a small business next to a institution like this?
Posted by: Commuter Nov 12 2012, 11:14 AM
Let's say the city fathers allow this strip club to open here. What you can do, as an American with rights, is protest it like the good citizens of Uniontown Indiana did when an adult establishment opened up in their town:
There used to be a Lion's Den adult store along I 65. The locals didn't want it there, but the county had to allow it lest they faced discrimination suits.
So they banded together and sat at the entrance with cameras and took snapshots of license plates of every single vehicle that entered and posted them on the internet -- as well as sending pictures of trucker's trucks to their employers.
Lion's Den closed. The property is for sale.
Read their story here: http://www.war-line.org/default.asp
THAT folks is Democracy in action. THAT is what is SO COOL about being BORN in America. You can't DO THAT in many other countries.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 12 2012, 11:27 AM
QUOTE(Commuter @ Nov 12 2012, 11:14 AM)
Let's say the city fathers allow this strip club to open here. What you can do, as an American with rights, is protest it like the good citizens of Uniontown Indiana did when an adult establishment opened up in their town:
There used to be a Lion's Den adult store along I 65. The locals didn't want it there, but the county had to allow it lest they faced discrimination suits.
So they banded together and sat at the entrance with cameras and took snapshots of license plates of every single vehicle that entered and posted them on the internet -- as well as sending pictures of trucker's trucks to their employers.
Lion's Den closed. The property is for sale.
Read their story here: http://www.war-line.org/default.asp
THAT folks is Democracy in action. THAT is what is SO COOL about being BORN in America. You can't DO THAT in many other countries.
That is a great strategy honestly. I do like the tax strategy better, because there is less chance of something bad happening (fights at the entrance for example). I appreciate the regulations (such as the 6 foot rule) they want to put in, but I do believe they will lead to freedom of speech lawsuits, which can be expensive, and are very up to open interpretation.
If you want to stop them from opening here, hit them in the pocketbook. All three strategies (embarrassment, taxes, and regulations) do attempt to do that.
Posted by: Tim Nov 12 2012, 03:12 PM
QUOTE(Ang @ Nov 12 2012, 09:22 AM)
What difference will a strip club make in the grand scheme of things with people are already afraid to shop here and tourist here because they fear for their lives or their wallets (I definitely paraphrased that one! Jerry, I hope I got your point correctly).
To me, that sounds like it already sucks, how could it get any worse. Which is just a F'd up way to think. It's giving up/throwing in the towel.
Surely, we can do better than just shrugging our shoulders and looking the other way.
Posted by: taxthedeer Nov 13 2012, 02:03 AM
QUOTE(Commuter @ Nov 11 2012, 08:23 PM)
Today, our total hourly averagel labor costs are among the world's highest -- upwards of $35 an hour.
The place I worked at this past year sometimes didn't even pay $35.00 a week.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 13 2012, 09:58 AM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Nov 13 2012, 02:03 AM)
The place I worked at this past year sometimes didn't even pay $35.00 a week.
Well if you can get a job in the strip club, you could probably make $35 a lap dance
Posted by: Ang Nov 13 2012, 10:00 AM
That's a scary thought! 
Posted by: taxthedeer Nov 13 2012, 02:26 PM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Nov 13 2012, 09:58 AM)
Well if you can get a job in the strip club, you could probably make $35 a lap dance
No thanks, Like one of the women that spoke at the BZA/County Commision mentioned, the erotic dancing profession provides no group health insurance, pensio, retirement plann or 401K.
The Holy Father said it best. Are these women still going to be dancing in their late 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s.?
Posted by: Ang Nov 13 2012, 04:24 PM
Most likely not--If you're 28 you're considered "old"
Posted by: Tim Nov 13 2012, 07:37 PM
QUOTE(Ang @ Nov 13 2012, 04:24 PM)
Most likely not--If you're 28 you're considered "old"
Well, dang.
(Crosses "Become male stripper" off bucket list)
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 16 2012, 01:27 PM
A bid has been awarded to tear down the old K-Mart plaza, sounds like it should be done in a month. I wonder when they will start?
Posted by: Commuter Nov 16 2012, 04:51 PM
Perhaps communion services on the easement (aka free speech zone) at 11pm on Friday and Saturday nights? Nothing like a little guilt to make patrons feel like creepazoids.
I'm big into the power of free speech. People live so much of their lives in fear, not quite realizing that they have MUCH power to stand on their convictions.
Oprah Winfrey said it right: "Don’t back down just to keep the peace. Standing up for your beliefs builds self-confidence and self-esteem.”
Posted by: Tim Nov 17 2012, 01:50 AM
QUOTE(Commuter @ Nov 16 2012, 04:51 PM)
Perhaps communion services on the easement (aka free speech zone) at 11pm on Friday and Saturday nights? Nothing like a little guilt to make patrons feel like creepazoids.
I'm big into the power of free speech. People live so much of their lives in fear, not quite realizing that they have MUCH power to stand on their convictions.
Oprah Winfrey said it right: "Don’t back down just to keep the peace. Standing up for your beliefs builds self-confidence and self-esteem.”
And remember what Rodney King said -
I can't see jack-dukey outta this eye."
Wait - that can't be right...
Posted by: Commuter Nov 17 2012, 02:46 PM
ok buddy. you got a laugh outta me on that one.
Posted by: Tim Nov 17 2012, 07:23 PM
QUOTE(Commuter @ Nov 17 2012, 02:46 PM)
ok buddy. you got a laugh outta me on that one.
Then my work here is done.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 19 2012, 07:40 AM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 17 2012, 01:50 AM)
And remember what Rodney King said -
I can't see jack-dukey outta this eye."
Wait - that can't be right...
I read it on the internet, so it has to be true.
Posted by: taxthedeer Nov 26 2012, 12:11 PM
Demolition of the former Kmart building in the Dunes Plaza will begin on next Monday, December 3rd and will be completed on December 21st. The former Dunes Plaza Theater building and ajoing stores demolition will be completed in Mid Febuary.
Lets all give our well wishes for the saftey of all those involved in working on this project.
Posted by: Ang Nov 26 2012, 03:03 PM
And fingers crossed they hire local people to complete all this work......
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 28 2012, 10:52 AM
More info on the project from the new City planner...
The demolition scheduled to start on December 3rd will initially only cover the old K-Mart building, the old cinema, as well as the area immediately south of the cinema. The area to the west of the old K-Mart (including Dollar General), as well as the western line of stores and buildings (including Godfathers and the old Chicago haircuttery) are scheduled to be demo'd in a later, yet to be determined phase of expansion. This all depends on the success of the Kohl's and any other yet to be announced businesses that move in, necessitating the next round of demo's and new buildings. They also anticipate some new outlots eventually being added along 20.
Kohl's is scheduled to break ground in April, and they hope to have it done in November, in time for the Christmas shopping season in 2013. Other stores are still in negotiations to join the first stores to be opened in these strips, but as of now, none have officially signed on yet.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 28 2012, 10:58 AM
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/laporte/michigan-city/demolition-at-dunes-plaza-expected-by-dec/article_34e22b5b-2978-508d-9e05-6f7aefffab2d.html
QUOTE
Stan Maddux Times Correspondent
(0) Comments
MICHIGAN CITY | Demolition will begin soon at Dunes Plaza to make way for a Kohl's department store.
A contract for more than $400,000 has been awarded to Brandenburg Industrial Service out of Bethlehem, Pa.
Mayor Ron Meer said demolition of the building that years ago housed Kmart and Hobby Lobby will start within the next two weeks.
The contract mandates demolition be finished by Dec. 21.
The old Cinema also will be torn down in coming months and once sewer upgrades in Dunes Plaza are completed that site will be occupied by another undisclosed commercial development.
"It's going to be a nice injection into that area where we kind of had a cavity of not much activity," said Meer.
(0) Comments
MICHIGAN CITY | Demolition will begin soon at Dunes Plaza to make way for a Kohl's department store.
A contract for more than $400,000 has been awarded to Brandenburg Industrial Service out of Bethlehem, Pa.
Mayor Ron Meer said demolition of the building that years ago housed Kmart and Hobby Lobby will start within the next two weeks.
The contract mandates demolition be finished by Dec. 21.
The old Cinema also will be torn down in coming months and once sewer upgrades in Dunes Plaza are completed that site will be occupied by another undisclosed commercial development.
"It's going to be a nice injection into that area where we kind of had a cavity of not much activity," said Meer.
Posted by: Ang Nov 28 2012, 11:29 AM
So, what about the businesses that are on the south end of the movie theater building? Will they have to move, or is that part not going to get razed?
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Nov 28 2012, 12:00 PM
QUOTE(Ang @ Nov 28 2012, 11:29 AM)
So, what about the businesses that are on the south end of the movie theater building? Will they have to move, or is that part not going to get razed?
They are getting moved. It will be razed.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Dec 3 2012, 09:15 AM
Today is the day the destruction should begin, assuming of course they can see to the ends of their cranes...
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Dec 5 2012, 09:57 AM
Drove by the plaza last night... Still no demo work done, nor is there any heavy equipment there yet. There was even still power on in one of the buildings just to the south of the cinema.
Posted by: diggler Dec 6 2012, 01:34 PM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Dec 5 2012, 09:57 AM)
Drove by the plaza last night... Still no demo work done, nor is there any heavy equipment there yet. There was even still power on in one of the buildings just to the south of the cinema.
Thought I'd take my usual shortcut there today...when I saw it was already FENCED IN
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Dec 10 2012, 08:27 AM
They had a bunch of heavy equipment parked in front of the old K-Mart building yesterday...
Posted by: diggler Dec 10 2012, 08:55 AM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Dec 10 2012, 08:27 AM)
They had a bunch of heavy equipment parked in front of the old K-Mart building yesterday...
Hope atleast they completely redo and repave the Ho Chi Minh trail parking lot.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Dec 10 2012, 09:00 AM
QUOTE(diggler @ Dec 10 2012, 08:55 AM)
Hope atleast they completely redo and repave the Ho Chi Minh trail parking lot.
That is supposed to be part of the plan.
Posted by: ChickenCityRoller Dec 10 2012, 08:56 PM
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Dec 11 2012, 08:18 AM
Nice shot.
Posted by: taxthedeer Dec 30 2012, 09:23 PM
Illinois strip club owners are going to pay a $3.00 a head "pole tax" beginning Tuesday.
Posted by: MC Born & Raised Dec 31 2012, 01:03 AM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Dec 30 2012, 10:23 PM)
Illinois strip club owners are going to pay a $3.00 a head "pole tax" beginning Tuesday.
What a good idea and solid revenue stream. Thank God we have all the money around here that we need!
Posted by: MCRogers1974 Dec 31 2012, 05:48 AM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Dec 30 2012, 10:23 PM)
Illinois strip club owners are going to pay a $3.00 a head "pole tax" beginning Tuesday.
The tax makes perfect sense to me. This is similar to the head tax at the casino except Blue Chip actually pays the tax: $3 per person with $1 of the $3 ultimately returning to the city of MC.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Dec 31 2012, 07:36 AM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Dec 30 2012, 09:23 PM)
Illinois strip club owners are going to pay a $3.00 a head "pole tax" beginning Tuesday.
I borrowed this idea while back actually... Instead of trying to legislate behavior, set up a high tax system for the strip clubs who want to open in LaPorte County. It would probably be the best deterrent of all.
Posted by: taxthedeer Dec 31 2012, 08:34 AM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Dec 31 2012, 07:36 AM)
I borrowed this idea while back actually... Instead of trying to legislate behavior, set up a high tax system for the strip clubs who want to open in LaPorte County. It would probably be the best deterrent of all.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/illinois-passes-skin-tax-strip-clubs-joking-matter/story?id=17044255
QUOTE
Illinois Governor Approves Strip Club 'Skin Tax' to Fund Rape Crisis Centers
By SUSANNA KIM (@skimm)
Aug. 20, 2012
So-called "sin taxes" exist for smoking, gambling and alcohol, and now Illinois has passed a "skin tax" for strip clubs, which backers say will raise up to $1 million a year to fund rape crisis centers in the state.
Illinois Governor Pat Quinn signed a law creating the Sexual Assault Services and Prevention Fund, sponsored by Democratic State Senators Toi Hutchinson and Sara Feigenholtz. The state senate passed the bill by unanimous vote in May; a similar bill has already passed in Texas.
Created in response to declining state funding for rape crisis centers, the new law allows the Illinois Department of Human Services to administer the fund to centers, which will be supported through the Live Adult Entertainment Facility Surcharge. Strip club operators will pay a charge on gross receipts on a tiered basis, or a $3 surcharge for each patron. The law takes effect Jan. 1, 2013.
"I think in the end, everyone negotiated in good faith," Hutcinson said about the rape crisis center advocates and club owners. "The one thing we all agreed on was these services needed funding. As long as that was the overriding goal, we could concentrate where the money was going."
Hutchinson introduced a version of the current bill in the state legislature on Feb. 7.
Hutchinson had initially proposed a $5 tax for the entry of each customer admitted into a live adult entertainment facility. She said the $3 surcharge and tiered structure, which is dependent on a club's size and revenues, was a compromise proposed by club owners.
The Coalition Against Sexual Assault, an advocacy group, first approached Hutchinson with the idea to sponsor the bill. Polly Poskin, executive director of the coalition, said her group's funding has dropped by $1.2 million the past three budget years. She applauded the governor for signing the bill.
"This law is a victory for rape victims and the dedicated rape crisis centers who work 24 hours a day, 365 days a year in communities across the state of Illinois to provide supportive, caring services to survivors of sexual assault," said Poskin. "They will benefit from this innovative and important funding stream."
Hutchinson has said she was not trying to shut down strip clubs and hoped to conduct open discussions with the industry.
Chicago's Admiral Theatre was "strongly opposed to the proposed pole tax," Sam Cecola, the North Side club's director of operations, told the Chicago Tribune earlier this year.
Micheal Ocello, president of the Illinois Club Owners Association, told the Tribune when the bill was first introduced that he could not find scientific proof "that going to an adult club causes people to go out and commit rape, commit crimes," though he applauded Hutchinson for "trying to do something good."
Some sociology research has shown connections between strip clubs and organized crime and human trafficking in places like Queensland, Australia. Sheila Jeffreys, a political science professor at the University of Melbourne, wrote a paper called "Keeping Women Down and Out: The Strip Club Boom and the Reinforcement of Male Dominance" in 2008.
"Strip clubs are not separate from society but influence on many levels the way men relate to women," Jeffreys wrote.
Anthropologist Katherine Frank said one can't single out strip clubs as promoting the treatment of women as sexual objects. She said attempts to link violence against women directly to visiting strip clubs or viewing pornography would be "far too simplistic."
By SUSANNA KIM (@skimm)
Aug. 20, 2012
So-called "sin taxes" exist for smoking, gambling and alcohol, and now Illinois has passed a "skin tax" for strip clubs, which backers say will raise up to $1 million a year to fund rape crisis centers in the state.
Illinois Governor Pat Quinn signed a law creating the Sexual Assault Services and Prevention Fund, sponsored by Democratic State Senators Toi Hutchinson and Sara Feigenholtz. The state senate passed the bill by unanimous vote in May; a similar bill has already passed in Texas.
Created in response to declining state funding for rape crisis centers, the new law allows the Illinois Department of Human Services to administer the fund to centers, which will be supported through the Live Adult Entertainment Facility Surcharge. Strip club operators will pay a charge on gross receipts on a tiered basis, or a $3 surcharge for each patron. The law takes effect Jan. 1, 2013.
"I think in the end, everyone negotiated in good faith," Hutcinson said about the rape crisis center advocates and club owners. "The one thing we all agreed on was these services needed funding. As long as that was the overriding goal, we could concentrate where the money was going."
Hutchinson introduced a version of the current bill in the state legislature on Feb. 7.
Hutchinson had initially proposed a $5 tax for the entry of each customer admitted into a live adult entertainment facility. She said the $3 surcharge and tiered structure, which is dependent on a club's size and revenues, was a compromise proposed by club owners.
The Coalition Against Sexual Assault, an advocacy group, first approached Hutchinson with the idea to sponsor the bill. Polly Poskin, executive director of the coalition, said her group's funding has dropped by $1.2 million the past three budget years. She applauded the governor for signing the bill.
"This law is a victory for rape victims and the dedicated rape crisis centers who work 24 hours a day, 365 days a year in communities across the state of Illinois to provide supportive, caring services to survivors of sexual assault," said Poskin. "They will benefit from this innovative and important funding stream."
Hutchinson has said she was not trying to shut down strip clubs and hoped to conduct open discussions with the industry.
Chicago's Admiral Theatre was "strongly opposed to the proposed pole tax," Sam Cecola, the North Side club's director of operations, told the Chicago Tribune earlier this year.
Micheal Ocello, president of the Illinois Club Owners Association, told the Tribune when the bill was first introduced that he could not find scientific proof "that going to an adult club causes people to go out and commit rape, commit crimes," though he applauded Hutchinson for "trying to do something good."
Some sociology research has shown connections between strip clubs and organized crime and human trafficking in places like Queensland, Australia. Sheila Jeffreys, a political science professor at the University of Melbourne, wrote a paper called "Keeping Women Down and Out: The Strip Club Boom and the Reinforcement of Male Dominance" in 2008.
"Strip clubs are not separate from society but influence on many levels the way men relate to women," Jeffreys wrote.
Anthropologist Katherine Frank said one can't single out strip clubs as promoting the treatment of women as sexual objects. She said attempts to link violence against women directly to visiting strip clubs or viewing pornography would be "far too simplistic."
Posted by: Andrea Jan 3 2013, 05:08 PM
QUOTE(Tim @ Nov 1 2012, 04:50 PM)
lol@ "Healthy business".
This is the last thing Our Fair City needs.
The last thing Our Fair City needed, but got, was the housing development on Pahs Road... across from the high school... with a majority of residents being from other places besides LaPorte County... and with additional buildings going up as we speak.
The problem, in my view, is that most citizens don't care what goes in here or how bad it can make things for the city. If there were 1,500 people at every zoning board meeting & every county council meeting & every city council meeting & on & on.... developers of low income housing projects & strip clubs wouldn't even bother because they'd know firsthand they'd be in hostile territory.
But people are too comfortable sitting in front of their boob tubes to bother attending meetings or making their voices heard. So Our Fair City is an easy target. We have short attention spans.
Posted by: Tim Jan 3 2013, 05:50 PM
QUOTE(Andrea @ Jan 3 2013, 05:08 PM)
The last thing Our Fair City needed, but got, was the housing development on Pahs Road... across from the high school... with a majority of residents being from other places besides LaPorte County... and with additional buildings going up as we speak.
The problem, in my view, is that most citizens don't care what goes in here or how bad it can make things for the city. If there were 1,500 people at every zoning board meeting & every county council meeting & every city council meeting & on & on.... developers of low income housing projects & strip clubs wouldn't even bother because they'd know firsthand they'd be in hostile territory.
But people are too comfortable sitting in front of their boob tubes to bother attending meetings or making their voices heard. So Our Fair City is an easy target. We have short attention spans.
We? Nope.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Jan 3 2013, 06:46 PM
QUOTE(Andrea @ Jan 3 2013, 05:08 PM)
The last thing Our Fair City needed, but got, was the housing development on Pahs Road... across from the high school... with a majority of residents being from other places besides LaPorte County... and with additional buildings going up as we speak.
The problem, in my view, is that most citizens don't care what goes in here or how bad it can make things for the city. If there were 1,500 people at every zoning board meeting & every county council meeting & every city council meeting & on & on.... developers of low income housing projects & strip clubs wouldn't even bother because they'd know firsthand they'd be in hostile territory.
But people are too comfortable sitting in front of their boob tubes to bother attending meetings or making their voices heard. So Our Fair City is an easy target. We have short attention spans.
Welcome to the board. Feel free to join our uncontent crowd!
Posted by: taxthedeer Sep 11 2013, 11:20 AM
Mr. Burys will try to get approval from the county BZA for the U.S. 35 location on September 17th.
Posted by: diggler Sep 11 2013, 02:34 PM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Sep 11 2013, 12:20 PM)
Mr. Burys will try to get approval from the county BZA for the U.S. 35 location on September 17th.
Isn't that the same spot were the previous old strip club was located next to the Super 8 ??
Posted by: taxthedeer Sep 11 2013, 03:43 PM
QUOTE(diggler @ Sep 11 2013, 03:34 PM)
Isn't that the same spot were the previous old strip club was located next to the Super 8 ??
I believe this property is the proposed site:
http://beacon.schneidercorp.com/Application.aspx?AppID=205&LayerID=2736&PageTypeID=4&PageID=1531&KeyValue=460606251004000062
Posted by: diggler Sep 12 2013, 04:33 AM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Sep 11 2013, 04:43 PM)
I believe this property is the proposed site:
http://beacon.schneidercorp.com/Application.aspx?AppID=205&LayerID=2736&PageTypeID=4&PageID=1531&KeyValue=460606251004000062
So its a bit further north from there: http://bit.ly/15msojJ
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Sep 13 2013, 01:52 PM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Sep 11 2013, 12:20 PM)
Mr. Burys will try to get approval from the county BZA for the U.S. 35 location on September 17th.
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/laporte/city-of-laporte/michigan-city-area-strip-club-proposal-is-back/article_7b1635a0-2544-538a-9eec-635615513a84.html
Posted by: taxthedeer Sep 17 2013, 07:33 AM
The BZA meeting is tonight at 6PM at the county complex in La Porte.
Posted by: taxthedeer Sep 17 2013, 12:49 PM
The variance has now been postponed until the October meeting.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Sep 25 2013, 08:41 AM
The Planning Commission last night discussed more details and reviewed language on an upcoming proposed update to the local Adult Entertainment ordinance. It looks like the proposal will be voted on in committee within the next few weeks, which will be then passed on to the full Planning body for a vote at their October 22nd meeting. If approved, the measure will likely be passed up to the City Council for their first November meeting.
The body heard a full presentation on Adult Entertainment from a consultant who has done lots of research both in the industry and how various similar ordinances have fared in the court system. For those who are interested, I would recommend going to http://www.accesslaportecounty.org/ and pulling up the meeting (it should be posted really soon). There is a lot of stuff in there that many people don't know about what restrictions can be placed on Adult Entertainment (for example strip clubs) and what can't. Much of the activity is protected under the first amendment freedom of speech provisions. Regulations based on the activities that take place on those types of facilities are illegal, and can result in a losing court case, invalidation of a communities zoning ordinance, and the potential for adult entertainment facilities to be able to locate pretty much anywhere in a community until the ordinance is fixed.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Sep 30 2013, 09:49 AM
TJ Maxx and Roths to come next year.
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/laporte/michigan-city/officials-hope-kohl-s-opeining-signals-resurrection-dunes-plaza/article_09384220-794e-52b4-8503-c76e42cc1855.html
Posted by: diggler Sep 30 2013, 12:02 PM
I'll be there tomorrow.
Posted by: mcstumper Sep 30 2013, 05:40 PM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Sep 30 2013, 10:49 AM)
TJ Maxx and Roths to come next year.
What's Roths?
I wonder if he meant Ross.
Posted by: diggler Oct 1 2013, 01:51 AM
Posted by: mcstumper Oct 1 2013, 11:55 AM
Yeah, I saw that, but it looks like it is only in Oregon. Michigan City would be an interesting choice of location to break out into the midwest.
Posted by: ChickenCityRoller Oct 1 2013, 01:58 PM
Somehow, I think that was a typo and they're talking about ROSS
http://www.rossstores.com/locator.aspx
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Oct 1 2013, 02:05 PM
QUOTE(ChickenCityRoller @ Oct 1 2013, 02:58 PM)
Somehow, I think that was a typo and they're talking about ROSS
http://www.rossstores.com/locator.aspx
That would make a ton more sense.
Posted by: ChickenCityRoller Oct 1 2013, 02:13 PM
Yes it would but I would MUCH rather have ROTHS than ROSS...
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Oct 1 2013, 02:27 PM
QUOTE(ChickenCityRoller @ Oct 1 2013, 03:13 PM)
Yes it would but I would MUCH rather have ROTHS than ROSS...
While I think a Whole Foods style place might succeed in the area, that wouldn't be the spot for it to happen. It would have to be in Karwick or that general area.
Posted by: ChickenCityRoller Oct 1 2013, 02:41 PM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Oct 1 2013, 03:27 PM)
While I think a Whole Foods style place might succeed in the area, that wouldn't be the spot for it to happen. It would have to be in Karwick or that general area.
Yeah, the hwy12 corridor would make more sense than hwy 20. That said, IMO, Meijer has the best produce in town. In the summer, Al's Karwick does a better job of getting local produce but all in all, Meijer has everyone beat pretty easily in the produce department.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Oct 1 2013, 03:10 PM
QUOTE(ChickenCityRoller @ Oct 1 2013, 03:41 PM)
Yeah, the hwy12 corridor would make more sense than hwy 20. That said, IMO, Meijer has the best produce in town. In the summer, Al's Karwick does a better job of getting local produce but all in all, Meijer has everyone beat pretty easily in the produce department.
I'll be honest, we get more from the farmers market and Garwood vs anywhere else.
Posted by: ChickenCityRoller Oct 1 2013, 03:32 PM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Oct 1 2013, 04:10 PM)
I'll be honest, we get more from the farmers market and Garwood vs anywhere else.
Yeah, we go to the farmers Market every Saturday but that's only good for around three months out of the year. The rest of the time, it's meijers for me. When I go to Chicago, I often go grab produce from one of the many produce only grocers like Stanley's.
Posted by: diggler Oct 1 2013, 06:30 PM
Does the farmers market have buckwheat ??
Posted by: ChickenCityRoller Oct 2 2013, 07:06 AM
Buckwheat? What are you making, Blinis?
No, the farmers market doesn't have buckwheat. The supermarkets have redmill though.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Oct 14 2013, 02:12 PM
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/laporte/michigan-city/michigan-city-gentlemen-s-club-bumped-to-back-burner-again/article_bf997a8d-6942-5f31-b048-6a871a6105a4.html
QUOTE
Michigan City 'gentlemen's club' bumped to back burner again
October 12, 2013 6:07 pm • Stan Maddux Times Correspondent
MICHIGAN CITY | A proposal for a gentlemen's club near Michigan City is again on the back burner.
A hearing before the LaPorte County Board of Zoning Appeals that had been scheduled for Tuesday has been postponed indefinitely.
Still pending is federal litigation filed against LaPorte County government over the matter in 2012 by the owner of the proposed club, Chicago area developer John Burys. That pending litigation has prompted rescheduled BZA hearings the past three months, said Dave Ambers, the attorney for Burys.
Originally, the gentlemen's club was proposed for a site along U.S. 421 near County Road 300 North south of Michigan City, but it was struck down by the BZA based on zoning laws that banned such establishments.
Because a ban is unconstitutional, the county amended the ordinance a year later to allow strip clubs but with restrictions governing where they can locate and how they can operate.
Among the restrictions is that nude dancers and patrons cannot be within 6 feet of each other and such establishments also would have to close at 2 a.m.
Ambers said the lawsuit alleges the restrictions are too tight and violate the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. He and BZA attorney Doug Biege asked for the delay, believing resolving the litigation might be best before proceeding with the hearing for a zoning variance to build the strip club, said Ambers.
"That's what we're trying to decide. It may very well be," said Ambers.
The proposal has generated significant controversy, drawing large crowds at past hearings mostly of people against the strip club, who say, among other things, that it would serve as a black eye on the county in terms of morality, attracting the wrong people into the county and drop property values.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Oct 22 2013, 10:30 AM
Reminder: Tonight the Michigan City Planning Commission meets, and the big thing on the agenda for them is the Adult Entertainment Ordinance. If it passes there tonight, it should move on to the City Council's docket sometime in November.
Posted by: diggler Oct 22 2013, 12:38 PM
Be curious to see who will be marching in the picket line outside.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Oct 23 2013, 10:14 AM
The Planning Commission did approve by a 7-0 vote a resolution which includes a proposed Adult Entertainment ordinance last night. The ordinance would provide 750 foot buffers between an adult entertainment facilities and any residential area, church, school, other adult entertainment facility, and other sensitive uses. It also added a provision exempting the Highway 12 Gateway from Blue Chip Casino to the City limits. The resolution now is able to be picked up by the City Council for their considerations.
There are no plans or proposals for ANY adult entertainment facilities in City at this time. This is cleaning up an existing ordinance to protect the City in the future, if this does come up.
Posted by: ChickenCityRoller Oct 23 2013, 11:32 AM
So it sounds like the strip club will be located somewhere on hwy 12? Is that correct? Thanks for the info SS'er
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Oct 23 2013, 12:23 PM
QUOTE(ChickenCityRoller @ Oct 23 2013, 12:32 PM)
So it sounds like the strip club will be located somewhere on hwy 12? Is that correct? Thanks for the info SS'er
No. Members of the Commission expressed reservations about any location on Highway 12, so we did a bit of work to make sure that could not happen. The Western strip of 12 is all residential, so there were no possibilities anyway. On the Eastern side there was one possibility at the old Knoll Brothers site, but language was added to create a Gateway area on that side of town to protect the entrance to town.
Also again worth noting there are no plans for anything like this in town right now.
Posted by: diablo11 Dec 19 2014, 10:36 AM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Oct 17 2012, 07:06 PM)
Ziola and his group was originally wanting to build a $20 million "Condotal" on that site that included demolishing Swingbelly's.
http://www.citybythelake.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=678
This whole thing needs to be scrubbed.
Please do not invest with Chi- Builder's He has so many people he owes'' LOOK up court Doc's"""" And whoever approves his building is taking a Kick Back!!!! Check record's in Cook Co. Il.
Posted by: diablo11 Dec 19 2014, 10:39 AM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Oct 16 2012, 05:55 PM)
Does anybody know the status on any of these three?
DO NOT INVEST WITH CHI- BUILDER'S (Scammer) Lost %$$$$$ He owed VON TOBEL!!!
Posted by: taxthedeer Dec 19 2014, 10:43 AM
QUOTE(diablo11 @ Dec 19 2014, 10:36 AM)
Please do not invest with Chi- Builder's He has so many people he owes'' LOOK up court Doc's"""" And whoever approves his building is taking a Kick Back!!!! Check record's in Cook Co. Il.
I've been watching all the City Board of Works meetings on ALCO. It's a great way to find out a lot of things that are going on in Michigan City. They are accepting bids to demolish the "Ice Creame Parlor" building on January 7th. City inspector Russ Hatfield stated to the board that the builder or ownership groups have not been in contact with their department in over a month.
Posted by: diablo11 Dec 19 2014, 10:56 AM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Oct 17 2012, 04:52 PM)
Here's a back article form the 05-23-12 News-Dispatch:
http://thenewsdispatch.com/articles/2010/05/27/features/business/doc4bf89d8fe8fed734391647.txt
WHOSE TAKING A KICKBACK FROM THIS BUILDER???? Look up Cook Co. court's/ Frderal/ & LaPorte Co.
Posted by: taxthedeer Dec 19 2014, 12:21 PM
It's been really interesting watching the process of everything involving the property. It has been better than watching a daytime soap opera.
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Dec 19 2014, 04:09 PM
I'd like to see some details
Posted by: taxthedeer Dec 20 2014, 11:03 AM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Dec 19 2014, 04:09 PM)
I'd like to see some details
This project has been a disaster from the start:
http://www.citybythelake.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2052
Posted by: Southsider2k12 Dec 20 2014, 11:19 AM
QUOTE(taxthedeer @ Dec 20 2014, 11:03 AM)
This project has been a disaster from the start:
http://www.citybythelake.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2052
I meant of the kickbacks and fraud.
Posted by: taxthedeer Dec 20 2014, 04:51 PM
QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Dec 20 2014, 11:19 AM)
I meant of the kickbacks and fraud.
I'm not aware of any kickbacks and fraud. I did pull up the July 7 Board of Works and Meeting. This was a nearly 3 hour meeting. The board Mr. Ziola and Mrs. Crockett at the 39:00 mark. It was some pretty riveting stuff.
http://alc.pegcentral.com/player.php?video=7dd4d709e6c6288c9e3bd6a41cce7625
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