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> Two-Way Traffic on Franklin, Let's run it up the blog poll, and see if anyone salutes.
Franklin Street as a Two-Way
Invest the money to change north Franklin back to two-way traffic?
Absolutely [ 7 ] ** [33.33%]
Depends on the plan [ 8 ] ** [38.10%]
Fence-straddlers apply here [ 1 ] ** [4.76%]
Leaning towards "no" [ 2 ] ** [9.52%]
Absolutely not [ 3 ] ** [14.29%]
I thought it was two-way! That would explain those tickets. [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Invest the money to open Franklin straight to the beach?
Absolutely [ 8 ] ** [38.10%]
Depends on the plan [ 5 ] ** [23.81%]
Indecisive [ 1 ] ** [4.76%]
Leaning towards "no" [ 1 ] ** [4.76%]
Absolutely not [ 5 ] ** [23.81%]
Can I do the demolition myself? [ 1 ] ** [4.76%]
Total Votes: 42
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Marram
post May 23 2008, 04:10 PM
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Let's do this thing up right. You make the call. I will too after a few people vote.


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Ang
post May 24 2008, 07:28 AM
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While I think Franklin should be a straight shot to the lake, I have a hard time with the two way thing. (Yes, I'll admit, I'm the fence straddler!)

For one, that street has never been a two way in my lifetime. I think it would create a lot of confusion for people and there will be many near-miss head-on collisions for people who don't realize it's become two way.
For two, there is already a parking issue uptown. There simply isn't enough parking. I suppose if the road was one lane in each direction, instead of two like the rest of Franklin, maybe the parking issue won't be so bad. But, if they're going to make it two way, then there should be some sort of centrally located parking structure. (more expense)
And three, what about crossing the street to get to businesses on the other side? Will there be pedestrian crossings, or pedestrian lights (you know the little button on the light pole you can push to get the light to change for you?) which is another expense I wonder if the City has considered. Or will it continue to be stop signs all the way down? Personally, if they are going to make it two way, then I think there will definitely need to be a light at 6th St. because of LHP traffic.

As for opening it all the way to Lake, who cares if you can't see the lake from 5th St.? It's the anticipation of knowing it's there and a straight shot. Like in New Buffalo. When you turn off 12 you can't see the beach, but you know it's there and you anticipate the pending view. It's exciting.



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lovethiscity
post May 24 2008, 07:36 AM
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QUOTE(Ang @ May 24 2008, 08:28 AM) *

While I think Franklin should be a straight shot to the lake, I have a hard time with the two way thing. (Yes, I'll admit, I'm the fence straddler!)

For one, that street has never been a two way in my lifetime. I think it would create a lot of confusion for people and there will be many near-miss head-on collisions for people who don't realize it's become two way.
For two, there is already a parking issue uptown. There simply isn't enough parking. I suppose if the road was one lane in each direction, instead of two like the rest of Franklin, maybe the parking issue won't be so bad. But, if they're going to make it two way, then there should be some sort of centrally located parking structure. (more expense)
And three, what about crossing the street to get to businesses on the other side? Will there be pedestrian crossings, or pedestrian lights (you know the little button on the light pole you can push to get the light to change for you?) which is another expense I wonder if the City has considered. Or will it continue to be stop signs all the way down? Personally, if they are going to make it two way, then I think there will definitely need to be a light at 6th St. because of LHP traffic.

As for opening it all the way to Lake, who cares if you can't see the lake from 5th St.? It's the anticipation of knowing it's there and a straight shot. Like in New Buffalo. When you turn off 12 you can't see the beach, but you know it's there and you anticipate the pending view. It's exciting.

I have been told as you crest the hill at Ripley St by Elston you can see the lake, if the 4th street turn-around was removed
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Ang
post May 24 2008, 08:06 AM
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QUOTE(lovethiscity @ May 24 2008, 07:36 AM) *

I have been told as you crest the hill at Ripley St by Elston you can see the lake, if the 4th street turn-around was removed



I believe that might be true. Seems to me I recall that view before they moved the library to 4th St.

Tim, you're the geezer of the bunch, can you remember being able to see the Lake from Ripley St?


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Southsider2k12
post May 24 2008, 09:28 PM
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If anyone else is familiar with other beach communities, they do everything they can to highlight the way to their beach. It is a source of community pride pretty much everywhere else. I don't know why we hide our beautiful beach.
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lovethiscity
post May 25 2008, 08:43 AM
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QUOTE(southsider2k7 @ May 24 2008, 10:28 PM) *

If anyone else is familiar with other beach communities, they do everything they can to highlight the way to their beach. It is a source of community pride pretty much everywhere else. I don't know why we hide our beautiful beach.

Well, let's start with a Mayor that says "we can't pick apart a study and expect it to work" Then oders a study to make Franklin two way when the study calls for opening Franklin to the lake!
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CaddyRich
post May 25 2008, 09:46 AM
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Step 1) Two way traffic is the way to go, IMO.

Step 2) Instead of opening it up all the way to the beach, how about just one more block...to City Hall?


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mcstumper
post May 26 2008, 08:10 PM
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Obviously I believe that two way traffic combined with the "Stumper Plan" to change the traffic flows around the library (which would include a partial return to two way traffic on Pine and Washington) is the way to go. The logic flow of traffic for those heading to and from the beach wpuld change from Pine/Washington to Franklin which should improve the chances of development money coming back to the Square. We need to focus funds and manpower on Trail Creek corridor redevelopment before addressing whether or not there is a need to move both the library and the News-Dispatch buildings.


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Southsider2k12
post May 27 2008, 08:39 AM
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We need to do this all in a big picture frame of mind. The Trail Creek corridor leads to the beach. If we highlight one are, we highlight the other area. We want things to be easy and obvious for people to find. Like I said before, the entrance to Washington Park should be the centerpiece of our beach front. We are trying to be a tourist town, we need to act like one, and make things as simple as possible for people to negotiate.
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Marram
post May 27 2008, 08:23 PM
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So far, the board is leaning strongly toward supporting both of those initiatives -- opening Franlin straight to the beach and opening it up to two-way traffic -- with even more of a "just do it" attitude applied to the former. And since 6 people are in favor of removing the library and city hall without needing to see the plan, I guess that means I can fire up my bulldozer.

Even more telling, this poll has garnered twelve responses, which, although not quite statisitically significant, is getting there.

Then again, the polls here will never be statistically accurate with respect to the entire population of MC according to our Algebra book: it teaches us that this type of sampling, since it is voluntary, is therefore "biased." People who respond voluntarily to call-in shows and polls tend to be more negative and more inclined to want change. Of course, that's also how we elect our officials: using a voluntary poll; but with politics the biased voluntary polling we do is offset by the built-in financial and publicity advantage that incumbants have.


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Roger Kaputnik
post May 28 2008, 08:32 AM
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The key part of the above discussion is the part about the development of the Trail Creek corridor. If it is given up to private building, the potential to bring the lakefront park into the city will be squandered. Much "e-nk" has been spilled on this issue; please refer to the relevant threads.


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Dave
post May 29 2008, 02:15 AM
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Heck, I want to do the demolition! We could do it as a fund raiser -- auction off turns on the bulldozer!

OK, that's a bit frivolous, but both the Andrews U. plan and the Lohan Anderson plan have Franklin running out to the lake with two way traffic. I could be looking at this wrong, but it seems to me that this is just a matter of fixing the clusterfxxk that was the "Franklin Square" project of the 70's which was what really killed the downtown.
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Roger Kaputnik
post May 29 2008, 07:57 AM
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You are ignoring the fact that the stores were old, crowded, and people at that time were all hyped up about shopping in a mall. That is what crippled that commercial district, and then Franklin Square (again, a study showed this was a good idea) killed it. Or rather, the absolute refusal of people to park and walk one block did. Two-way traffic is a canard.


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Dave
post May 29 2008, 01:15 PM
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I've seen what malls do to towns when they first open. I spent a few months in Green Bay a year or two after they opened a mall in their downtown in the early 80's-- all the stores outside the mall died. The place looked like a ghost town, or a post-apocalypse episode of the Twilight Zone.

On the other hand, my home town, Holland, Michigan, still has a vibrant downtown in addition to having some huge malls a short drive away. Holland played with the pedestrian mall thing for a short time, realized it was a mistake, and changed back (mostly) in relatively short order. They never had huge vacancy rates in their downtown as a result of mall-ification.

Of course, they didn't drop a building in the middle of their main drag either (in Holland, that's Eighth Street, here it's Franklin), so the reversal was a matter of re-opening the street to traffic.


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Roger Kaputnik
post May 29 2008, 02:14 PM
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Consider this alternative to moving the Library (!): Put in a continuous, angled roadway from northbound Franklin onto Pine and from southbound Washington onto Franklin. That makes the drive much more direct-feeling than making two 90° turns with stops. Of course, this would involve demolishing some buidlings, but hey--can't make pecan pie without busting some nuts!


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lovethiscity
post May 29 2008, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ May 29 2008, 03:14 PM) *

Consider this alternative to moving the Library (!): Put in a continuous, angled roadway from northbound Franklin onto Pine and from southbound Washington onto Franklin. That makes the drive much more direct-feeling than making two 90° turns with stops. Of course, this would involve demolishing some buidlings, but hey--can't make pecan pie without busting some nuts!

I say for once the city needs to listen to the experts, something this town simply refuses to do. The Library was never part of any plan. All the experts agree on one thing, that is move the city's biggest video store. Screw inventing the wheel again twisting and slanting digging the roads under the library, just move it.
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Dave
post May 29 2008, 11:40 PM
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QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ May 29 2008, 03:14 PM) *

Consider this alternative to moving the Library (!): Put in a continuous, angled roadway from northbound Franklin onto Pine and from southbound Washington onto Franklin. That makes the drive much more direct-feeling than making two 90° turns with stops. Of course, this would involve demolishing some buidlings, but hey--can't make pecan pie without busting some nuts!



Mmmmm, pie.

What?!? huh.gif

Oh.

Roger, I don't think using imminent domain to purchase two city blocks to reroute Franklin Street traffic would be more cost-effective than taking a big wrench to the library, taking it apart, and moving it and City Hall to a new location, either the Memorial Hospital property or to the City Hall-nart.

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Ang
post May 30 2008, 07:56 AM
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I like the idea of putting the library at the old Memorial Hospital site. Reason being it it's close to the (for lack of a better phrase and I mean no one any disrespect) poorer neighborhoods. The library is an excellent place for low income people to visit because you can get movies, music and books for free. You can do research or use the internet for free. For people with low to moderate income, the library is a terrifc outlet for boredom. Keeping it on the north end, centrally located, is a smart thing to do, but leaving sit in the middle of Franklin St is not.


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Dave
post May 30 2008, 11:30 AM
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No offense taken. The north end currently is one of the poorer neighborhoods in MC. That's simply a fact. I (and many other people) have hopes that that will change as time goes by.

n any case, the library would be an addition to the north end, rich or poor. And putting it on the Memorial Hospital site (possibly with City Hall and the police station -- some kind of a municipal complex?)) would seem to be a possible solution to the Franklin Street problem.
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Roger Kaputnik
post May 30 2008, 12:49 PM
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QUOTE(Dave @ May 30 2008, 12:40 AM) *



Mmmmm, pie.

What?!? huh.gif

Oh.

Roger, I don't think using imminent domain to purchase two city blocks to reroute Franklin Street traffic would be more cost-effective than taking a big wrench to the library, taking it apart, and moving it and City Hall to a new location, either the Memorial Hospital property or to the City Hall-nart.





Is your use of "imminent" domain intentional? If so, it is a clever way to describe the use of eminent domain to take private property for questionable purposes.

My biggest kvetch in all this discussion is the stubborn insistence on developing small parcels or blocks in such a way as to actually discourage development in nearby areas or over a wider part of the North End. As I said before, much 'enk' has been devoted to this in reated threads.

Franklin St. does not need to be two-way or open to the Bridge. This idea is a pure canard. Making Washington, Pine, and 6th Streets two-way and commercial will open more areas up than just the few blocks from 9th to 4th on Franklin. >yawn<

Putting a so-called teardrop at the south end of Franklin somewhere between 9th and 11th alleviates the problems of traffic flow into the Lakefront areas. This teardrop, by the way, is like what is at the top end by the police station and City Hall. This may not be a new idea, by the way. Can we review the old Oberlie plans from the early '70s?



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