[Tom Burns]

Further details of earlier WEFM report are on the air today.

[eric.hanke]

Further details of earlier WEFM report are on the air today.

Hasen't city government figured out that in order to develop the north end the city offices have to move and Franklin Street has to be opened up?

[Southsider2k12]

Hasen't city government figured out that in order to develop the north end the city offices have to more and Franklin Street has to be opened up?

I am hoping this is exactly what this purchase means, but I am not holding my breath.

[JHeath]

Hasen't city government figured out that in order to develop the north end the city offices have to move and Franklin Street has to be opened up?

Well, a former opponent of Mayor Oberlie's had proposed a plan during the campaign, but most residents scoffed at it, or didn't take it seriously. I'm glad to see things seemingly moving in that direction though.

[Dave]

I still think they should raffle off tickets for driving a bulldozer through the library.

[Southsider2k12]

My biggest fear is that the are buying the land to prevent anything from changing in the near future.

[mcstumper]

Hasen't city government figured out that in order to develop the north end the city offices have to move and Franklin Street has to be opened up?

Maybe I can ask the people at Snopes to write an article in which they investigate and disprove the myth that the city offices have to be moved in order to open up Franklin. I will say it yet again: The News-Dispatch and the Library are the only buildings on the old Franklin right-of-way. City Hall would not have to be moved.

As for the relocationists, I have a question. The current theory is that the reason that the downtown is poorly developed is due to the loss of the vehicular traffic going to the beach. Also, it could be reasoned that drivers heading to the beach know that they will have to turn right at some point to get to Pine St. Some will turn sooner (11th St.), some will turn a little later (8th, 7th, etc), and a few will drive all the way to the library before turning. Therefore, it can be assumed that the farther south you are in Franklin Square, the higher the beach bound traffic still exists. However, the section of Franklin between 6th and 4th (the northern most section) is the jewel of the square, flying right in the face of our theory. Thoughts?

[JHeath]

As for the relocationists, I have a question. The current theory is that the reason that the downtown is poorly developed is due to the loss of the vehicular traffic going to the beach. Also, it could be reasoned that drivers heading to the beach know that they will have to turn right at some point to get to Pine St. Some will turn sooner (11th St.), some will turn a little later (8th, 7th, etc), and a few will drive all the way to the library before turning. Therefore, it can be assumed that the farther south you are in Franklin Square, the higher the beach bound traffic still exists. However, the section of Franklin between 6th and 4th (the northern most section) is the jewel of the square, flying right in the face of our theory. Thoughts?

The northernmost intersection, at 4th and Franklin, gets a lot of local traffic. I'll agree with this. I'm not
certain, because I've not done any formal studies, but couldn't most of this traffic be attributed to the buses, the pubs, and the Library? Also, Horizon Bank, Jazzercize, a hair salon, and Maxine's are on the block btwn 6th and 5th...again, mostly local traffic.

What we're talking about is making the entire area, north of 11th street, shine again. Open it up to 2-way traffic flow, all the way through to the lakefront, showcasing what many believe to be the "crown jewel" of MC. Allow private development to get the land back onto the tax rolls and bring in more money to our City.

If you look at the way the traffic patterns flow in the area where Highway 12 intersects with Washington and Pine, it looks like a tunnel that leads you out of the area. (Use Google Earth, and check the street views for examples).You're wondering what this has to do with Franklin...right? IMHO, opening up Franklin all the way through would mean that we could make that intersection one more stop, where people travelling on Hwy 12 might just realize that they're within 2 blocks of the lakefront, without having to search for the (somewhat difficult to see if you don't know it's there) signage.

Let's showcase what we have to offer...not hide it away.

[Michelle]

For what it's worth, the tourists seem to love the library. I hear so many compliments about it in the summertime. Out-of-towners love the easy access to internet/newspapers/magazines, and comment on its design often.

It's worth remembering that the library has some distinction on its own. It was one of Helmut Jahn's earlier works, and it was recently photographed for a retrospective on his architecture.

[IndyTransplant]

The northernmost intersection, at 4th and Franklin, gets a lot of local traffic. I'll agree with this. I'm not
certain, because I've not done any formal studies, but couldn't most of this traffic be attributed to the buses, the pubs, and the Library? Also, Horizon Bank, Jazzercize, a hair salon, and Maxine's are on the block btwn 6th and 5th...again, mostly local traffic.

What we're talking about is making the entire area, north of 11th street, shine again. Open it up to 2-way traffic flow, all the way through to the lakefront, showcasing what many believe to be the "crown jewel" of MC. Allow private development to get the land back onto the tax rolls and bring in more money to our City.

If you look at the way the traffic patterns flow in the area where Highway 12 intersects with Washington and Pine, it looks like a tunnel that leads you out of the area. (Use Google Earth, and check the street views for examples).You're wondering what this has to do with Franklin...right? IMHO, opening up Franklin all the way through would mean that we could make that intersection one more stop, where people travelling on Hwy 12 might just realize that they're within 2 blocks of the lakefront, without having to search for the (somewhat difficult to see if you don't know it's there) signage.

Let's showcase what we have to offer...not hide it away.

As a newcomer resident and former visitor, I love the layout of Franklin, Pine, Washington and Wabash with Franklin leading to one of several "jewels" of Michigan CIty - the library and it's award winning architectural design, which I understand attracts architectual students to visit Michigan City and is included as a site on at least two northern Indiana/Chicago sight seeing touring companies I found.



The trip up Franklin to 4th, then right to Pine and then north through the roundabout and right over the bridge to the beach is something I found interesting and also slows traffic, so the local businesses can actually be noticed and be seen.



If the Library and City Hall are torn down/removed and Franklin becomes just another straightaway, people will fly thorough to the beach without noticing anything (like they do now on the southern end of Franklin). I had no trouble as a newcomer locating the beach and most of my visitors like the way it is away from the main streets. They think it lends an air of a more private feel, even though they all knew exactly how to get there.



If you really believe that people cannot find the beach, then perhaps better signage leading out of towners up Franklin to 4th Street and from there to Pine and north, is a better answer (ands less expensive).



I absolutely hate the idea of taking away the unique charm that many visitors comment on. In an informal survey of me talking to strangers/visitors at places like Station 801 and Blue Chip, (you all know that I talk to anyone, anywhere - I am just like a Chatty Cathy doll ) , the visitors I talked to, love the way Franklin goes to one way north of 9th. They said the buildings are beautiful and they have often stopped just to walk the street and go in and out of the restaurants, pubs and shops that are there. They also commented that it is a shame that more of the shops are not located in that area, instead of further south. It has a charm, they said, they do not find in many towns anymore. When I tell them there is a move afoot to change that area of Franklin to two way and/or to move the Library and City Hall to allow a straight shot to the beach, they are horrified.



The beach is a beautiful attraction for Michigan City, but it is not the only thing we offer and I would hate to see other assets destroyed or go unnoticed to highlight only one of MC's "crown jewels".



Sometimes I think many of you have lived here so long, that you can't see the forest for the trees.

[IndyTransplant]

I still think they should raffle off tickets for driving a bulldozer through the library.

I am sorry that you cannot appreciate one of MC's largest assets - so many of you claim to be so concerned about schooling and unemployment and then you want to bulldoze one of the biggest assets and contributors to helping both children and adults learn and find employment.



The library offers free tutoring to both children and adults in many subjects; the reference librarians spend many hours helping people with their resumes' and helping them on the computer to apply for jobs and apply for unemployment. The library offers vast resources for people to learn in areas that interest them and for what materials this library does not have room to house, it offers inter-library loans throughout the state (and country I think) and points the way to other local libraries people can visit that do have additional or different material offerings (PNC, LaPorte County, etc).



It is certainly your right, but I am shocked that so many would complain about the schools and then promote bulldozing an already built, available and working educational resource.

[Dave]

Indy Transplant, you are totally misinterpreting my message.

I'm a big supporter of public libraries. One of the best things Ben Franklin and Carnegie and Herrick ever did was push for public libraries. They are a cultural beacon in big cities, but even more so in small towns. I lived less than a block from the public library when I was a kid, and I practically lived there.

As for the Helmut Jahn design, it doesn't do that much for me -- I'm more of a practicalist, and to me the place looks like a huge radiator. I imagine the heating bills there in the winter are a bear. But I can see where folks could like it, it just doesn't do that much for me.

My ONLY issue with the library is it's location. Sticking it in the middle of Franklin Street and blocking the gateway to the lake was a stupid thing to do in the '70's when everyplace was going towards "downtown malls" (you and I both missed the time when Franklin Square was a pedestrian mall, and the street was plowed up and seeded with grass thirty years ago), and leaving it there now is a stupid idea. What attraction does the library have in its present location that it wouldn't have at say, the Memorial Hospital site (the vacant block east of Pine between 5th and 6th streets)?

There have been quotations on this message board from people on the design team with Helmut Jahn stating that the library is modular -- to oversimplify it a bit, with a big wrench, one could take the whole thing apart, put it on trucks, and move it to a new location.

My bulldozer remark is a bit of hyperbole. Sorry you didn't take it that way.

[kharris]

Indy Transplant, you are totally misinterpreting my message.

I'm a big supporter of public libraries. One of the best things Ben Franklin and Carnegie and Herrick ever did was push for public libraries. They are a cultural beacon in big cities, but even more so in small towns. I lived less than a block from the public library when I was a kid, and I practically lived there.

As for the Helmut Jahn design, it doesn't do that much for me -- I'm more of a practicalist, and to me the place looks like a huge radiator. I imagine the heating bills there in the winter are a bear. But I can see where folks could like it, it just doesn't do that much for me.

My ONLY issue with the library is it's location. Sticking it in the middle of Franklin Street and blocking the gateway to the lake was a stupid thing to do in the '70's when everyplace was going towards "downtown malls" (you and I both missed the time when Franklin Square was a pedestrian mall, and the street was plowed up and seeded with grass thirty years ago), and leaving it there now is a stupid idea. What attraction does the library have in its present location that it wouldn't have at say, the Memorial Hospital site (the vacant block east of Pine between 5th and 6th streets)?

There have been quotations on this message board from people on the design team with Helmut Jahn stating that the library is modular -- to oversimplify it a bit, with a big wrench, one could take the whole thing apart, put it on trucks, and move it to a new location.
My bulldozer remark is a bit of hyperbole. Sorry you didn't take it that way.

At what cost?

[IndyTransplant]

At what cost?

That was part of my point too, kharris. Thanks for asking.

Dave,
I really did not think you meant it literally and I know you are not personally anti-library in general. You gave me an opening to make a point and I took it. So thanks for that and sorry I hijacked your post to do it.

However I am serious about the importance of the library to this city and also would like for everyone to read my previous post about why I (and other visitors I have spoken with) like the current configuration of Franklin and the downtown (uptown?) area of Franklin, Pine, Washington, Wabash and the current roundabout way to the beach.

To further elaborate on kharris's question, does everyone here really believe the cost to move or raze at least two to three buildings, plus widening and building additions onto Franklin Rd will really be such a boon, as to offset those costs so tourists can have a straight shot to the lake?
(Again part of my point was also that tourists on a straight shot, tend to drive more quickly, and not see the businesses they are passing by on the way to the lake).

I still fervently believe the city could provide better signage starting at 94 and leading all the way north to 4th, over to Pine and up to the lake. These could be very visible, but charming signs that will fit with the areas they are posted. Other signs could also be posted at various intersections along the way or appended to the directional ones highlighting some of our other attractions, museums, zoo, parks, Barker Mansion etc. Businesses such as the steakhouses, Swing Belly's, Matey's, Top Dog, McGuiness's, Ryan's, the coffeehouses and others along the way on Franklin or on Washington and Wabash (and the other streets) might be willing to help purchase some of these signs if their business name could be on them also.

If Franklin is made two way and taken straight to the lake and back, all of the current businesses along Washington & Wabash might see a tourist only once in awhile, (and once again the tourists may barely notice the ones on Franklin in their haste to go straight to and from the beach). If we don't force them to slow down (as our current configuration does) for the most part they will not slow down.

Our current road configuration guarantees tourists see more than one street in this town as they come north and then go back south again and forces them to drive at a more leisurely pace along the way. Only at a leisurely pace will some of our businesses have the opportunity to be seen and therefore possibly patronized.

[kharris]

That was part of my point too, kharris. Thanks for asking.

Dave,
I really did not think you meant it literally and I know you are not personally anti-library in general. You gave me an opening to make a point and I took it. So thanks for that and sorry I hijacked your post to do it.

However I am serious about the importance of the library to this city and also would like for everyone to read my previous post about why I (and other visitors I have spoken with) like the current configuration of Franklin and the downtown (uptown?) area of Franklin, Pine, Washington, Wabash and the current roundabout way to the beach.

To further elaborate on kharris's question, does everyone here really believe the cost to move or raze at least two to three buildings, plus widening and building additions onto Franklin Rd will really be such a boon, as to offset those costs so tourists can have a straight shot to the lake?
(Again part of my point was also that tourists on a straight shot, tend to drive more quickly, and not see the businesses they are passing by on the way to the lake).

I still fervently believe the city could provide better signage starting at 94 and leading all the way north to 4th, over to Pine and up to the lake. These could be very visible, but charming signs that will fit with the areas they are posted. Other signs could also be posted at various intersections along the way or appended to the directional ones highlighting some of our other attractions, museums, zoo, parks, Barker Mansion etc. Businesses such as the steakhouses, Swing Belly's, Matey's, Top Dog, McGuiness's, Ryan's, the coffeehouses and others along the way on Franklin or on Washington and Wabash (and the other streets) might be willing to help purchase some of these signs if their business name could be on them also.

If Franklin is made two way and taken straight to the lake and back, all of the current businesses along Washington & Wabash might see a tourist only once in awhile, (and once again the tourists may barely notice the ones on Franklin in their haste to go straight to and from the beach). If we don't force them to slow down (as our current configuration does) for the most part they will not slow down.

Our current road configuration guarantees tourists see more than one street in this town as they come north and then go back south again and forces them to drive at a more leisurely pace along the way. Only at a leisurely pace will some of our businesses have the opportunity to be seen and therefore possibly patronized.

I tend to agree. I also wonder if proponents of such a change aren't advocating for that change more for nostalgic reasons rather than any other. Again, only my opinion, but find a way to attract the kinds of businesses that will attract more patrons and the flow of traffic on Franklin will grow regardless of one-way or two-way traffic or whether it is a throughway to the lake or not.

[Dave]

At what cost?

I really don't know, but I'd guess that it would be cheaper than building a whole new library from scratch.

That was part of my point too, kharris. Thanks for asking.

Dave,
I really did not think you meant it literally and I know you are not personally anti-library in general. You gave me an opening to make a point and I took it. So thanks for that and sorry I hijacked your post to do it.

Ummm, OK.

However I am serious about the importance of the library to this city and also would like for everyone to read my previous post about why I (and other visitors I have spoken with) like the current configuration of Franklin and the downtown (uptown?) area of Franklin, Pine, Washington, Wabash and the current roundabout way to the beach.

And I'm still not sure why the Memorial Hospital site, or somewhere else, wouldn't be just as good. People go out of their way to go to a library. If it's still on a bus line, I don't know as the location matters that much, and I'd frankly be surprised if tourists make up that much of the library's clientele.

To further elaborate on kharris's question, does everyone here really believe the cost to move or raze at least two to three buildings, plus widening and building additions onto Franklin Rd will really be such a boon, as to offset those costs so tourists can have a straight shot to the lake?

I can't speak for everyone here, but as for me, yeah, I think so.

(Again part of my point was also that tourists on a straight shot, tend to drive more quickly, and not see the businesses they are passing by on the way to the lake).

Traffic isn't going to be going 55 mph down Franklin, and some folks might appreciate being able to actually find the beach instead of having to negotiate a maze to get there. The library hides the lake -- I know people who go to the Lighthouse Mall and don't even know Michigan City has a beach.

I still fervently believe the city could provide better signage starting at 94 and leading all the way north to 4th, over to Pine and up to the lake. These could be very visible, but charming signs that will fit with the areas they are posted. Other signs could also be posted at various intersections along the way or appended to the directional ones highlighting some of our other attractions, museums, zoo, parks, Barker Mansion etc. Businesses such as the steakhouses, Swing Belly's, Matey's, Top Dog, McGuiness's, Ryan's, the coffeehouses and others along the way on Franklin or on Washington and Wabash (and the other streets) might be willing to help purchase some of these signs if their business name could be on them also.

If Franklin is made two way and taken straight to the lake and back, all of the current businesses along Washington & Wabash might see a tourist only once in awhile, (and once again the tourists may barely notice the ones on Franklin in their haste to go straight to and from the beach). If we don't force them to slow down (as our current configuration does) for the most part they will not slow down.

Our current road configuration guarantees tourists see more than one street in this town as they come north and then go back south again and forces them to drive at a more leisurely pace along the way. Only at a leisurely pace will some of our businesses have the opportunity to be seen and therefore possibly patronized.

Not to mention all those thriving businesses on Pine Street. Oops, there really aren't any, other than the the odd lawyer office. The businesses on Wabash aren't going to have a problem with reopening Franklin -- the current traffic pattern doesn't really help them, what helps them is being across the street from the largest outlet mall in this quarter of the state.

I tend to agree. I also wonder if proponents of such a change aren't advocating for that change more for nostalgic reasons rather than any other. Again, only my opinion, but find a way to attract the kinds of businesses that will attract more patrons and the flow of traffic on Franklin will grow regardless of one-way or two-way traffic or whether it is a throughway to the lake or not.

And some of us think that attracting the businesses would be a lot easier if the traffic flow was already there. Kind of "If you build it, they will come" in reverse. If the people are coming, the businesses will build.

This post has been edited by Dave: Jun 13 2009, 06:17 PM

[Michelle]

It's a moot discussion anyway, since I'm pretty sure it's not under serious consideration and the library isn't interested in moving, as far as I know. But it seems like the logistics of a move are being glossed over.

First, the library would have to acquire two new properties--one for the library to move to, and another for it to operate out of during the move. The temporary property will need to be retrofitted as best as it can to serve as a library. That means buying tons of shelving, putting in partitions and walls for office and meeting space, putting in equipment for the meeting rooms, rewiring, etc. That's going to take a lot of money and a lot of time.

Then it would have to box up 100,000-150,000 library materials to move to the new location. Most likely, some of the materials would have to go in storage and they'll be inaccessible until the new property is ready. All of the catalog records for materials that are placed into storage would have to be updated to reflect that, so more catalogers would need to be hired. The library doesn't have the staffing to move the materials, so it would have to employ a specialty company to organize and move everything.

During this moving period (which will take some time), the library would be closed. Kids needing materials for their schoolwork would have to make due elsewhere. People studying for the GED or learning how to read or speak English would have to wait. Everyone without an internet connection who needs to file for jobs online, file for unemployment benefits or food stamps, complete any sort of e-government forms, or have any business to conduct online would be in a bind.

So now the library would operate out of a temporary facility for a couple of years. Hopefully, the facility would allow the library to continue offering tutoring and job help, considering the double-digit unemployment and poor test results.

Meanwhile, the new site would have to be graded, a foundation built,, HVAC, electricity, fiber optics, and plumbing installed. Finally, they'll get to the painstaking process of unsealing and dismantling the walls from the current location and moving and reinstalling them in the new location, installing a roof and windows, and landscaping.

Repeat the procedures from the earlier move--library closed, everything pulled back out of storage, specialty moving company hired, catalog records updated. Finally, years and millions of dollars later, the move is completed, and the library is finally back to full service.

That seems like an incredible expense and effort to incur for the minimal benefit of eliminating two easy turns in the road and opening one block up for some unknown development. Particularly when it means reducing and temporarily eliminating services upon which the most vulnerable members of our community depend. That's a pretty irresponsible use of our resources, in my opinion. We have more important concerns.

Traffic isn't going to be going 55 mph down Franklin, and some folks might appreciate being able to actually find the beach instead of having to negotiate a maze to get there. The library hides the lake -- I know people who go to the Lighthouse Mall and don't even know Michigan City has a beach.

I've been asked for directions to a lot of places in Michigan City, personally and professionally, but never to the beach. Maybe I'm just not getting the questions, but maybe it's not that hard to find after all. There are signs directing people to it, and it seems easy enough to improve the signage if it's a problem.

The lake is hidden by the Trail Creek bridge, a big wooded park, and the marina. It's not visible from behind the library, so I'm not sure how the library is hiding it.

I'd frankly be surprised if tourists make up that much of the library's clientele.

Tourists are a significant portion of library patrons in the summer.

[lovethiscity]

I am hoping this is exactly what this purchase means, but I am not holding my breath.

Mayor Oberlie has suggested this would be the new location for the police department.

[lovethiscity]

At what cost?

Moving the library will increase the value of an awful lot of North end properties. From a developers point of veiw at least. Have you ever wondered why there is a newspaper printing facility on the lake front? The location of that property should have prevented even the thought of a warehouse being built there. It should not have been cost effective. CCR, can tell you what the value should be.

Keeping millions of dollars a year off the tax rolls every year needs to be figured into what the cost will be.
Putting the News Dispatch property on the auction block once the Library has been relocated, will create a bidding war for the property. Developers will come from all over. Once the land is developed the tax bsae will increase. Putting a Police Station there will keep off the tax rolls forever.

With the NICTD plan removing two miles of houses from the already shrinking tax base, we need to do something to reverse the shrinking tax base. Carol McD's plan of increasing tax on others because they can "afford it" will chase more people away. SMART GROWTH is something this town needs to learn about.

[IndyTransplant]

My responses to the various posts above this:

I am not sure why you think the tourists will drive slowly enough on a new improved Franklin to see the smaller storefront businesses. The speeds many of them drive on the southern end of Franklin and on Highway 35 to Blue Chip is fairly impressive evidence that given a wide enough two way road, it will up the speeds for most. (I am not referring to the senior generation that in larger numbers drives slower than other age groups anyway). The speeds they drive on the southern end of Franklin works ok as the majority of the businesses are recognized chains that people do not need to slow down to see and recognize. The 4 lane highway 35 has done nothing for the businesses along it, despite the draw of Blue Chip. But if you travel our uptown area at speeds above 25 or 30, I guarantee you that you drive past the current storefronts too fast to see what many of them are. (Most of you are long time residents and know what has been there and is there). As a newer resident, I am still noticing different places for the first time, when forced to slow down to 20 or less during times of heavy traffic.

The library is not a tinker toy. It takes a lot more than a big wrench to dismantle it and safely move it. They just went through replacing some sections at no small cost and you can ask those workers how easy it was to safely unseal, replace and reseal the walls so the library is structurally strong and sealed from the elements.

Then as Michelle pointed out, it would also need a good foundation built and plumbing, electrical and fiber optics installed as the walls are being rebuilt (a little at a time).

We went through a massive library addition and relocation of Central Library in Indianapolis as well as moving several smaller township branch libraries during the years we lived there.

The minimum time it took to build and move the smaller branch libraries (and they are much smaller than Michigan City's library) was two years.

Anyone reading the Indianapolis Star over the last ten to twelve years knows what a fiasco it was to add on to Central Library (which was forced to open a temporary central library in the old state museum building, lost a massive amount of patrons during that time and had to store massive amounts of materials).

Last but not least how much land are we opening to these massive developers some of you speak of. Once you build Franklin Road through the library property and widen/improve the section that goes between City Hall and the current ND building (and the ND building will need to be razed or moved to make that improvement also), how much land is left to develop and score property taxes off of.....and how long is it going to take to earn the millions of dollars in property taxes just to break even on the cost of moving the library and building/improving Franklin Road?

There are empty warehouses and land north of Blue Chip that are not being snatched up by your developers. The area around Pioneer Village is not exactly booming either. Are you also going to move what many outsiders refer to as our nuclear tower? We need the power NIPSCO provides, but that is more of a deterrent and eyesore to many developers than anything else. As Michelle stated, we have more important concerns.

We have many areas we could advance without the costs of moving a library and reconfiguring our main thoroughfares. However when someone announces a proposal to do just that (as for example the mixed use housing proposal on Pine Street), many of you naysay it, talk about what a bad area it is and do nothing to promote imrproving it. If you pin your hopes on one street, then in the end that is what we will have - one street and the rest will continue to fall into blight.

This appears to be one of the many subjects here in CBTL where it is probably going to come down to everyone voicing their opinions and then agreeing to disagree.
Although this time I have not read anything to change my opinion, many times your thoughts cause me to at least re-think things. Voicing our opinions is a right in this country and I am glad we have a forum to do so easily here.