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> Indiana's new Religious Freedom Restoration Act, What is up with the hand-wringing?
JRSchwartz
post Mar 27 2015, 07:25 PM
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What is up with all of the hand-wringing about Indiana's new Religious Freedom Restoration Act?

It is modeled after the federal government’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act, signed into law by President Bill Clinton in 1993.

Indiana's law is practically identical to other Religious Freedom Restoration Acts passed by 18 other states: Alabama, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Mississippi, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia.

It sounds like all of the outrage is due to the media's biased and incompetent reporting, as well as the desire for profits from ratings fueled by scandalous headlines.

When Governor Pence signed the bill, he said:

"One need look no further than the recent litigation concerning the Affordable Care Act. A private business and our own University of Notre Dame had to file lawsuits challenging provisions that required them to offer insurance coverage in violation of their religious views. Last year the Supreme Court of the United States upheld religious liberty in the Hobby Lobby case based on the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, but that act does not apply to individual states or local government action."

Notre Dame and Hobby Lobby did not want to be mandated by Obamacare to pay for abortions or abortifacients, which they oppose due to religious reasons. They, nor anyone else, should have to file suit in order to protect their own religious rights.

See: "19 States That Have ‘Religious Freedom’ Laws Like Indiana’s That No One is Boycotting", an article by the Washington Post.
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lovethiscity
post Mar 27 2015, 09:30 PM
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QUOTE(JRSchwartz @ Mar 27 2015, 08:25 PM) *

What is up with all of the hand-wringing about Indiana's new Religious Freedom Restoration Act?

It is modeled after the federal government’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act, signed into law by President Bill Clinton in 1993.

Indiana's law is practically identical to other Religious Freedom Restoration Acts passed by 18 other states: Alabama, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Mississippi, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia.

It sounds like all of the outrage is due to the media's biased and incompetent reporting, as well as the desire for profits from ratings fueled by scandalous headlines.

When Governor Pence signed the bill, he said:

"One need look no further than the recent litigation concerning the Affordable Care Act. A private business and our own University of Notre Dame had to file lawsuits challenging provisions that required them to offer insurance coverage in violation of their religious views. Last year the Supreme Court of the United States upheld religious liberty in the Hobby Lobby case based on the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, but that act does not apply to individual states or local government action."



Notre Dame and Hobby Lobby did not want to be mandated by Obamacare to pay for abortions or abortifacients, which they oppose due to religious reasons. They, nor anyone else, should have to file suit in order to protect their own religious rights.



Business already leaving the State due to discrimination.why do we need this.
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lovethiscity
post Mar 27 2015, 09:38 PM
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Today we are canceling all programs that require our customers/employees to travel to Indiana to face discrimination. http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/mik...ghts/index.html
10:02 AM - 26 Mar 2015

https://mobile.twitter.com/Benioff?original...108959337136129
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JRSchwartz
post Mar 28 2015, 05:13 AM
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QUOTE(lovethiscity @ Mar 27 2015, 10:30 PM) *

Business already leaving the State due to discrimination.why do we need this.


What discrimination? The law is already on the books with the federal government and with 18 other states.

Please, list the discrimination that has occurred in these other states due to this law. I bet you cannot list one incident where discrimination has been legitimized due to this law.

The real outage should be towards the irresponsible reporting by the media and the Hollywood elite, turning a molehill into a mountain.



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JRSchwartz
post Mar 28 2015, 05:19 AM
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QUOTE(lovethiscity @ Mar 27 2015, 10:38 PM) *

Today we are canceling all programs that require our customers/employees to travel to Indiana to face discrimination. http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/mik...ghts/index.html
10:02 AM - 26 Mar 2015

https://mobile.twitter.com/Benioff?original...108959337136129


The CNN article you cited is a classic example of irresponsible reporting by the media. For example, the article says, "...a lawsuit by Hobby Lobby to ensure the company wasn't required to cover birth control through its employees' health insurance plans." But Hobby Lobby does provide birth control coverage through its health care plans; Hobby Lobby did not want the coverage to include abortifacients (drugs that induce abortions).
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Southsider2k12
post Mar 28 2015, 08:13 AM
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I am embarrassed to have called myself a Republican after Pence's first two years in office. Attacking gays isn't real public policy. If they put half as much effort into schools and roads as they did punishing gays for being gay, we'd have one hell of a place to live.

The right to discriminate should not exist in 21st century America, especially knowing the history this country has with bastardizing the bible to say whatever we want, such as 300 years of justifying slavery in this country.
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Southsider2k12
post Mar 28 2015, 08:15 AM
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I posted this on my facebook page the other day, and I think it makes the point better than any other I have seen. If it really is about protecting your Christian sensibilities don't just stop at gays. Fully practice the entire bible, or be a hateful hypocrite.

Maybe I was a bit harsh on the whole "Religious Freedom" law about to go into effect. I got to thinking about it, and while to me I read the bible as saying that even if we don't agree with the sin, we still love the sinner, not all do. Christ himself had an inner-circle of sinners, and washed the feet of a prostitute. But many people don't agree with that interpretation, so I digress.

Here is my offer. If you want the ability to exclude serving people who are sinners, I want to see it done right. Don't just exclude gay's. I want to see a sign of the following sort on your door. Cover all sinners and sin.

"To protect our religious freedoms and sensibility, we will not be serving the following...

Gays, Bisexuals, Lesbians, Transvestites, Divorcees, Fornicators, Masturbators, Pork-eaters, Women who are Menstruating (and any other ritually unpure), Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Buddists, Mormons, Gentiles, (or any other non-approved religious group, Christian or otherwise), Idolators, People not obeying their parents, Husbands not obeying their wives, Wives not obeying their husbands, Children not obeying their parents, Blasphemers, Any business on Sunday, anyone working on Sunday's, Murderers, Thieves, Adulterers (including the divorced and remarried, anyone marrying their brother's wife, etc), Liars, Covetors, Interest chargers, Interest receivers, Alcoholics, Drug Addicts, The Lazy, The Rich, The Proud, and any others I might have missed, and reserve the right to add at a later date.
Thanks, Management."
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lovethiscity
post Mar 28 2015, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Mar 28 2015, 09:15 AM) *

I posted this on my facebook page the other day, and I think it makes the point better than any other I have seen. If it really is about protecting your Christian sensibilities don't just stop at gays. Fully practice the entire bible, or be a hateful hypocrite.

Maybe I was a bit harsh on the whole "Religious Freedom" law about to go into effect. I got to thinking about it, and while to me I read the bible as saying that even if we don't agree with the sin, we still love the sinner, not all do. Christ himself had an inner-circle of sinners, and washed the feet of a prostitute. But many people don't agree with that interpretation, so I digress.

Here is my offer. If you want the ability to exclude serving people who are sinners, I want to see it done right. Don't just exclude gay's. I want to see a sign of the following sort on your door. Cover all sinners and sin.

"To protect our religious freedoms and sensibility, we will not be serving the following...

Gays, Bisexuals, Lesbians, Transvestites, Divorcees, Fornicators, Masturbators, Pork-eaters, Women who are Menstruating (and any other ritually unpure), Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Buddists, Mormons, Gentiles, (or any other non-approved religious group, Christian or otherwise), Idolators, People not obeying their parents, Husbands not obeying their wives, Wives not obeying their husbands, Children not obeying their parents, Blasphemers, Any business on Sunday, anyone working on Sunday's, Murderers, Thieves, Adulterers (including the divorced and remarried, anyone marrying their brother's wife, etc), Liars, Covetors, Interest chargers, Interest receivers, Alcoholics, Drug Addicts, The Lazy, The Rich, The Proud, and any others I might have missed, and reserve the right to add at a later date.
Thanks, Management."

And I have been naive enough to think religion and the teachings of the bible. Were all about forgiveness, unconditional love, feeding the hungry, clothing the cold and helping the sick. Leaving final judgment to God, boy was I wrong. Makes me think twice of staying involved in any such judgmental hateful organization. One that intends on judging and injuring others in God's name.
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lovethiscity
post Mar 28 2015, 08:57 AM
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QUOTE(lovethiscity @ Mar 28 2015, 09:42 AM) *

And I have been naive enough to think religion and the teachings of the bible. Were all about forgiveness, unconditional love, feeding the hungry, clothing the cold and helping the sick. Leaving final judgment to God, boy was I wrong. Makes me think twice of staying involved in any such judgmental hateful organization. One that intends on judging and injuring others in God's name.

The middle east has empowered a bunch of religious zealots to rule with their interpretations of their God's will. The results have been centuries of violence.
The United States has been able to somewhat keep a separation of these beliefs and civic law. We can now see the separation between them slipping away. Will the result here be different because our God is better. Or is it they are zealots and here we are extreme devotion.


P.S.
Gay couple move onto my block and a horrible thing happened.............my home value went up! Damm sinners why don't you all move here, hurt me some more.
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JRSchwartz
post Mar 28 2015, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Mar 28 2015, 09:13 AM) *

I am embarrassed to have called myself a Republican after Pence's first two years in office. Attacking gays isn't real public policy. If they put half as much effort into schools and roads as they did punishing gays for being gay, we'd have one hell of a place to live.

The right to discriminate should not exist in 21st century America, especially knowing the history this country has with bastardizing the bible to say whatever we want, such as 300 years of justifying slavery in this country.


Where do you see about this law concerns attacking gays? Where do you see about this law legitimizing discrimination?

From Tom Davies, Associated Press: ”Indiana University law professor Daniel Conkle, who testified in favor of the bill in Indiana legislative committees, said he was a supporter of gay rights and that the predictions of negative implications from the law were unjustified.

Conkle, who has written extensively on religious legal issues, said he didn’t know of any cases under the similar state laws or the federal statute, which dates to 1993, where a court had sided with a religious objector in a discrimination case.

‘This license-to-discriminate argument that seems to have this relentless repetition is just legally wrong,’ Conkle said Friday. ‘It is as if you just keep repeating something often enough it takes on a life of its own.’”
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Southsider2k12
post Mar 28 2015, 11:07 AM
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QUOTE(JRSchwartz @ Mar 28 2015, 10:47 AM) *

Where do you see about this law concerns attacking gays? Where do you see about this law legitimizing discrimination?

From Tom Davies, Associated Press: ”Indiana University law professor Daniel Conkle, who testified in favor of the bill in Indiana legislative committees, said he was a supporter of gay rights and that the predictions of negative implications from the law were unjustified.

Conkle, who has written extensively on religious legal issues, said he didn’t know of any cases under the similar state laws or the federal statute, which dates to 1993, where a court had sided with a religious objector in a discrimination case.

‘This license-to-discriminate argument that seems to have this relentless repetition is just legally wrong,’ Conkle said Friday. ‘It is as if you just keep repeating something often enough it takes on a life of its own.’”


The case sited over and over again is the one of the cake maker and the gay customer. Even worse than this law is those pretending that it isn't what is actually is.
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Tim
post Mar 28 2015, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE(JRSchwartz @ Mar 28 2015, 05:13 AM) *

What discrimination? The law is already on the books with the federal government and with 18 other states.

Please, list the discrimination that has occurred in these other states due to this law. I bet you cannot list one incident where discrimination has been legitimized due to this law.

The real outage should be towards the irresponsible reporting by the media and the Hollywood elite, turning a molehill into a mountain.


The Hollywood elite?? Care to elaborate on that?
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j4katz
post Mar 29 2015, 11:05 AM
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QUOTE(JRSchwartz @ Mar 28 2015, 06:13 AM) *

What discrimination? The law is already on the books with the federal government and with 18 other states.

Please, list the discrimination that has occurred in these other states due to this law. I bet you cannot list one incident where discrimination has been legitimized due to this law.

The real outage should be towards the irresponsible reporting by the media and the Hollywood elite, turning a molehill into a mountain.



The INdiana RFRA does not mirror the Federal RFRA. It is a solution in search of a non-existent problem:

Here is a link to a letter written by law school professors from 14 different law schools (including IU) expalining how the legislation harms constitutionally protected interests:

http://freedomindiana.org/LawProfessorsRFRA.pdf

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j4katz
post Mar 29 2015, 11:06 AM
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Religious liberty?


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j4katz
post Mar 29 2015, 11:12 AM
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Justice Scalia's opinion in Employment Division, Department of Human Resources of Oregon v. Smith (No. 88-1213):

"We have never held that an individual's religious beliefs [p879] excuse him from compliance with an otherwise valid law prohibiting conduct that the State is free to regulate. On the contrary, the record of more than a century of our free exercise jurisprudence contradicts that proposition. As described succinctly by Justice Frankfurter in Minersville School Dist. Bd. of Educ. v. Gobitis, 310 U.S. 586, 594-595 (1940):

Conscientious scruples have not, in the course of the long struggle for religious toleration, relieved the individual from obedience to a general law not aimed at the promotion or restriction of religious beliefs. The mere possession of religious convictions which contradict the relevant concerns of a political society does not relieve the citizen from the discharge of political responsibilities.

(Footnote omitted.) We first had occasion to assert that principle in Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 (1879), where we rejected the claim that criminal laws against polygamy could not be constitutionally applied to those whose religion commanded the practice. "Laws," we said,

are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices. . . . Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself.

Id. at 166-167.

Subsequent decisions have consistently held that the right of free exercise does not relieve an individual of the obligation to comply with a valid and neutral law of general applicability on the ground that the law proscribes (or prescribes) conduct that his religion prescribes (or proscribes)."
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Southsider2k12
post Mar 31 2015, 11:50 AM
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Kas Thomas ‏@kasthomas 3h3 hours ago

Michael Huber, Indianapolis Chamber of Commerce: IN backlash could cost state $1 billion -- heard on @CNBC live. Governor speaking now.
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lovethiscity
post Apr 1 2015, 07:54 AM
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Life in America was friendlier and a little bit more simple, before the road opened on the internet super highway.
Talking points have bombarded us a Pentium speeds. No chance of thinking past the talking point for any logical substance happens. Before the next wave of talking points hits us. Emotional blasts of talking points hit rapidly most just twisted opinion with no truth to support them. Repeated so often and quickly somehow gives them truth.
For over 200 years the United States of America was the world leader in social and economic standings. Our form of Demcracy and it's ideals even the imperfections has attracted millions of immigrants from around the world. They saw past the imperfections, they found a promised land that allowed the pursuit of happiness.
Now for whatever reason, America is taking leaps backwards. People that came here to escape oppression from religious governments, to the land with a government that purposely has maintained a separation of church and state. They are finding a country that is legislating religious beliefs into civic law. The talk of moral decline has not happened here. No adult conversation has happened. Talking points have been blasted over and over implying government has failed in moral leadership. Anonymity behind screen names like "lovethiscity" allow for the spewing of bias, hateful, judgment of others, condemnation of others, protected racism. All very un-Christian behaviors, while standing on an internet pulpit shouting America was founded in Christian principles. We must legislate Cristian beliefs no matter how extreme into civic law.
At some point America needs to have an adult like conversation, not an emotional banter. On the direction we are to follow for the next two hundred years. Some questions need to be discussed and answered. Is it our laws causing a moral decline? Is there really a moral decline? Does any of the if any moral decline fall on the responsibility of the churches? We can talk about the results of moral legislation. We need only look to the most violent parts of the world. The places that oppression causing death and fleeing happens the most. These country's in all there wisdom formed governments of religious leadership. Country's without peace, unconditional love or a chance to pursue happiness. My question is which world will my granddaughter inherit from us.
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