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> South Shore plans $65 million project
Southsider2k12
post Jan 28 2010, 02:03 PM
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Very interesting! If it is something we can get ahold of, that would be awesome. If not, I look forward to your analysis.
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Southsider2k12
post Jan 28 2010, 02:06 PM
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Especially because if I understand this correctly, the dream of the northern route may now be dead.

http://www.southbendtribune.com/article/20...0/-1/googleNews

QUOTE
High-speed rail plan bypasses Michiana
White House announcement spells out $8 billion investment in projects across nation

Tribune Staff Report

Story was first posted at 11:30 a.m. Thursday, Jan. 28, 2010.

President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden will today announce the U.S. Department of Transportation is awarding $8 billion to states across the country to develop America's first nationwide high-speed intercity passenger rail service.

But according to a report released this morning, the plan apparently bypasses any Indiana cities.

Cities across northern Indiana had been lobbying for some time to be on a high-speed rail line.

Quantcast
The news release this morning says: "Funded by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, these dollars represent an historic investment in the country's transportation infrastructure, which will help create jobs and transform travel in America. The announcement is one of a number of job initiatives the President will lay out in the coming weeks that follow up on the continued commitment to job creation he discussed in Wednesday night's State of the Union Address.

A full list of the awards can be viewed by clicking here.

Today's awards will serve as a down-payment on developing or laying the groundwork for 13 new, large-scale high-speed rail corridors across the country, the release said.

The major corridors are part of a total of 31 states receiving investments, including smaller projects and planning work that will help lay the groundwork for future high-speed intercity rail service.
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mcstumper
post Jan 28 2010, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE(southsiderMMX @ Jan 28 2010, 02:06 PM) *

Especially because if I understand this correctly, the dream of the northern route may now be dead.



Dream or nightmare?


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dusk
post Jan 28 2010, 05:27 PM
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QUOTE(mcstumper @ Jan 28 2010, 04:53 PM) *

Dream or nightmare?

I was kind of wondering, how would a "large-scale high-speed rail corridor" fit through the "northern route" in MC?


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joe.black
post Jan 28 2010, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE(dusk @ Jan 28 2010, 06:27 PM) *

I was kind of wondering, how would a "large-scale high-speed rail corridor" fit through the "northern route" in MC?


It wouldn't, even if Indiana got $8 trillion in HSR funds. That right of way is sub-optimal for high speed rail; the plans that I saw (now moot, I guess, at least for now) ran the HSR trackage on all-new, high speed train-exclusive rights of way through NWI.
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joe.black
post Jan 28 2010, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE(southsiderMMX @ Jan 28 2010, 03:03 PM) *

Very interesting! If it is something we can get ahold of, that would be awesome. If not, I look forward to your analysis.


The full document should be available on the FRA web site. I actually got it from a colleague who already had an electronic copy.

www.fra.gov
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Southsider2k12
post Jan 28 2010, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE(dusk @ Jan 28 2010, 05:27 PM) *

I was kind of wondering, how would a "large-scale high-speed rail corridor" fit through the "northern route" in MC?


The hope of the northenders was to somehow piggyback onto the high speed corridor to pay for the Trail Creek bridge in their plans. Most likely, this would effectively kill that idea.
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Southsider2k12
post Jan 29 2010, 08:04 AM
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QUOTE(southsiderMMX @ Jan 28 2010, 02:06 PM) *

Especially because if I understand this correctly, the dream of the northern route may now be dead.

http://www.southbendtribune.com/article/20...0/-1/googleNews


The NDs version of the story

http://thenewsdispatch.com/articles/2010/0...39451665046.txt

QUOTE
High-speed rail quickly gaining ground

Chris Schable/For The News-Dispatch A westbound Amtrak train travels through Michigan City on track that crosses the city’s North End, which could become part of a Chicago-Detroit high-speed rail line.
State given $71.4 million for its part of project
From Staff and Wire Reports
Published: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:17 AM CST
MICHIGAN CITY — Indiana officials Thursday received about $71.4 million in federal stimulus money for its part of a planned high-speed rail project that would run from Chicago to suburban Detroit.

About 30 miles of that route passes through Northwest Indiana, and it may use Amtrak routes that pass through Michigan City.

No money appears to be earmarked for track improvements in Michigan City at this time, but instead the money will be used for a major investment on the most congested and delay-prone corridor in the country, which is west of here, between Porter, Ind., and Chicago, according to the White House.

U.S. Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Indiana, described the project as upgrades to consisting of eight independent improvements along that congested segment. Seven of the investments will be on the Norfolk Souther railroad line and one on the Amtrak Michigan Line at Porter.

President Obama, following up on his remarks about high-speed rail in his State of the Union address Wednesday night, announced Thursday in Tampa, Fla., $8 billion in grants for various rail improvements around the country. That includes $244 million for the Chicago to Detroit corridor. The grants are from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.

In Indiana, the project includes the relocation, reconfiguration and addition of high-speed crossovers and related signal system improvements, rail line additions at two locations, and the creation of a new passing tracks, the White House announced. “The project will greatly increase service reliability for passengers travelling from communities in Michigan and Indiana to Chicago, reducing train delay times by 24 percent and increasing average speeds by nearly 7 percent through this segment,” the White House statement said.

In Michigan, existing stations will be renovated in Troy and Battle Creek, and a new station will be constructed in downtown Dearborn adjacent to the Henry Ford Museum. Michigan gets $40 million of the funds.

In Illinois, bridges, embankment and retaining walls will be built to complement additional investments and support the construction of three new tracks to reduce congestion and allow for increased speeds of 40 percent through this area. Illinois gets $1.1 billion for this and improvements on other routes.

Thirteen passenger rail corridors in 31 states will receive grants. Some Democrats tout the high-speed rail project as a national rail-building program that could rival the interstate highways begun in the Eisenhower era.

Though the administration bills the program as “high-speed rail,” most U.S. projects won’t reach the speeds seen in Europe and Asia. California’s trains would be by far the fastest, exceeding the 200 mph achieved by some trains overseas.

Some of the money will go toward trains with top speeds of 110 mph, while other funds — such as the $400 million allotted to Ohio to connect Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati — will be for trains traveling no faster than 79 mph.

The White House said rail projects will create or save thousands of jobs in areas including track laying, manufacturing, planning, engineering and rail maintenance and operations.
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Southsider2k12
post Jan 29 2010, 08:15 AM
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QUOTE(joe.black @ Jan 28 2010, 06:09 PM) *

The full document should be available on the FRA web site. I actually got it from a colleague who already had an electronic copy.

www.fra.gov


Here is the report. 475 pages.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/Safety/PT...%28final%29.pdf
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lighter
post Jan 29 2010, 04:55 PM
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isn't the nd version of the story wrong? or at least, not right. it makes it seeem like its coming though the area, but clerely it isnt. just a reason to get a big photo with a big headlin on the page? Seems like the plan is closer to derailed then it is on the fast track. seems like they speculate based on nothing they no.
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joe.black
post Jan 30 2010, 12:56 PM
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OK, finished a very VERY preliminary review, and I think that while an MTEA may be possible for NICTD (exempting the street running from the PTC mandate), it will be very difficult.

To be granted an MTEA, a passenger railroad can apply to have some of its trackage classified as "not main line" (and therefore be exempted from the PTC mandate), under the following conditions:

1. Tracks are used exclusively as yard or terminal tracks (the street running could possibly fit this bill, although it does not currently - the yard limits territory would need to be extended all the way through the street-running portion of the line),
2. Maximum authorized speed is 20 mph or less, and that speed is enforced by the PTC on-board system (current maximum speed is 25 mph; this would have to be reduced to 20 mph - not a tragedy, but also not something that NICTD will find very attractive, as it's a step backward in terms of the strategic vision of reducing travel times across the line),
3. Interlocking rules are in effect that prohibit reverse movements other than on signal indications without dispatcher permission (under NICTD's rules, this is the case or could be made the case), and
4. Either no freight movements are made (which is obviously an impossibility - the SouthShore Freight operates out of the Shops at Carroll Avenue and uses the street running territory to get to the west) - OR - Freight operations are permitted, but there will be no passengers aboard passenger trains within the defined limits (another impossibility, for obvious reasons).

So, under those guidelines an MTEA cannot be approved, mainly because of provision 4.

There are a second set of conditions under which an MTEA could be approved:

1. All trains are limited to restricted speed (which is 20 mph - current maximum speed is 25 mph, which would have to be lowered, as in the previous set of conditions; not attractive to the railroad),
2. Temporal separation of trains is maintained (freight and passenger trains do not operate on any shared segment of track during the same time period; I need to dig into this a bit more, since this is on its face impossible unless you prohibit SouthShore Freight to operate during times when NICTD does not - not going to happen) - OR - Passenger service is operated under a risk mitigation plan submitted by all railroads operating in the territory - NICTD and SouthShore Freight - and approved by the FRA.

An MTEA under the second set of conditions might be possible, but the key is the risk mitigation plan, which must under the final PTC rule "...be supported by a risk assessment establishing that the proposed mitigations will achieve a level of safety not less than the level of safety that would obtain if the operations were conducted under paragraph ©(1) or ©(2) of this section...", which means that NICTD and SouthShore Freight would have to absolutely convince the FRA that the street running operation is at least as safe as temporally separating the types of trains (i.e. having the freights operate at different time periods than the passenger trains). That might be a very hard sell.

So, this will be a challenge, to say the least.
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mcstumper
post Jan 31 2010, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE(joe.black @ Jan 30 2010, 12:56 PM) *

4. Either no freight movements are made (which is obviously an impossibility - the SouthShore Freight operates out of the Shops at Carroll Avenue and uses the street running territory to get to the west) - OR - Freight operations are permitted, but there will be no passengers aboard passenger trains within the defined limits (another impossibility, for obvious reasons).

...

2. Temporal separation of trains is maintained (freight and passenger trains do not operate on any shared segment of track during the same time period; I need to dig into this a bit more, since this is on its face impossible unless you prohibit SouthShore Freight to operate during times when NICTD does not - not going to happen) - OR - Passenger service is operated under a risk mitigation plan submitted by all railroads operating in the territory - NICTD and SouthShore Freight - and approved by the FRA.


Joe, why doesn't the SS Freight & NICTD pay to rehab the Peanut Bridge and reopen the U.S. 12 grade crossing so that they can interchange with the Amtrak line? They could move just freight that way and keep the 11th St. tracks where they are.


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joe.black
post Feb 1 2010, 06:29 AM
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QUOTE(mcstumper @ Jan 31 2010, 11:03 PM) *

Joe, why doesn't the SS Freight & NICTD pay to rehab the Peanut Bridge and reopen the U.S. 12 grade crossing so that they can interchange with the Amtrak line? They could move just freight that way and keep the 11th St. tracks where they are.


That might be an option. BUT - there are tons of good reasons beyond PTC to get the tracks out of the asphalt, which have been discussed in other threads on this board. I could recap, if desired.
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Southsider2k12
post Feb 1 2010, 09:21 AM
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http://thenewsdispatch.com/articles/2010/0...80799472478.txt

QUOTE
Oberlie: High-speed rail ‘exciting’

By Deborah Sederberg
Staff Writer
Published: Saturday, January 30, 2010 4:16 AM CST
MICHIGAN CITY — Existing maps are not clear about the precise route high-speed Amtrak trains might take through Michigan City, but it looks as if the Chicago-to-Detroit train would run along the lake shore, where Amtrak now runs or near to that route. That means it likely will cross Trail Creek on the aging turning bridge.

Mayor Chuck Oberlie, who says it would be exciting to have the fast train traveling through the city, does not believe the bridge will pose a problem.

“It’s my understanding that some minor repairs will be necessary, but I don’t believe anyone has any intention of replacing it,” the mayor said.

On the heels of his State of the Union address Wednesday, President Obama announced $8 billion in grants for various rail improvements around the country. That sum includes $244 million for the Chicago to Detroit corridor. The grants come from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.

In the language of modern railroading, Oberlie said, “there are high-speed trains and higher speed trains.”

“My understanding is that it will be a higher speed train that runs through Michigan City,” he said.

According to the Federal Railroad Administration’s Web site, some trains run up to 220 miles per hour. Amtrak already offers 150 mph service in the Northeast Corridor, from Boston to New York City to Washington, D.C. Plans show a 110 mph segment on the Chicago-Detroit route.

“The true potential of a fully integrated high-speed intercity passenger rail network will not be achieved or realized overnight,” the FRA home page notes. The interstate highway system took 50 years to build, it reminds the public.

Some local North End redevelopment advocates think the South Shore line should be rerouted to the Amtrak corridor, which crosses Franklin Street just south of the entrance to Washington Park.

Oberlie said he stands with the city council on the matter of where to locate the route. Last month, the council passed a resolution asking that all options be studied.

“This is a significant decision and a person cannot make it without exploring all environmental and engineering options,” he said. NICTD, which operates the South Shore, will apply for a $3 million grant for an environmental study and a study of engineering options. The studies will look at the route near Amtrak and a widened route along 11th Street.

Yes, Oberlie said, he would love to have one of those high-speed trains stopping in Michigan City to pick up and drop off passengers. “Every community along the route would like to have the train stop.”

But, the mayor noted, “it’s supposed to be high-speed transportation.” He knows stopping, by its very nature, does not contribute to speed.
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Southsider2k12
post Feb 1 2010, 09:23 AM
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http://thenewsdispatch.com/articles/2010/0...39451665046.txt

QUOTE
High-speed rail quickly gaining ground

Chris Schable/For The News-Dispatch A westbound Amtrak train travels through Michigan City on track that crosses the city’s North End, which could become part of a Chicago-Detroit high-speed rail line.
State given $71.4 million for its part of project
From Staff and Wire Reports
Published: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:17 AM CST
MICHIGAN CITY — Indiana officials Thursday received about $71.4 million in federal stimulus money for its part of a planned high-speed rail project that would run from Chicago to suburban Detroit.

About 30 miles of that route passes through Northwest Indiana, and it may use Amtrak routes that pass through Michigan City.

No money appears to be earmarked for track improvements in Michigan City at this time, but instead the money will be used for a major investment on the most congested and delay-prone corridor in the country, which is west of here, between Porter, Ind., and Chicago, according to the White House.

U.S. Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Indiana, described the project as upgrades to consisting of eight independent improvements along that congested segment. Seven of the investments will be on the Norfolk Souther railroad line and one on the Amtrak Michigan Line at Porter.

President Obama, following up on his remarks about high-speed rail in his State of the Union address Wednesday night, announced Thursday in Tampa, Fla., $8 billion in grants for various rail improvements around the country. That includes $244 million for the Chicago to Detroit corridor. The grants are from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.

In Indiana, the project includes the relocation, reconfiguration and addition of high-speed crossovers and related signal system improvements, rail line additions at two locations, and the creation of a new passing tracks, the White House announced. “The project will greatly increase service reliability for passengers travelling from communities in Michigan and Indiana to Chicago, reducing train delay times by 24 percent and increasing average speeds by nearly 7 percent through this segment,” the White House statement said.

In Michigan, existing stations will be renovated in Troy and Battle Creek, and a new station will be constructed in downtown Dearborn adjacent to the Henry Ford Museum. Michigan gets $40 million of the funds.

In Illinois, bridges, embankment and retaining walls will be built to complement additional investments and support the construction of three new tracks to reduce congestion and allow for increased speeds of 40 percent through this area. Illinois gets $1.1 billion for this and improvements on other routes.

Thirteen passenger rail corridors in 31 states will receive grants. Some Democrats tout the high-speed rail project as a national rail-building program that could rival the interstate highways begun in the Eisenhower era.

Though the administration bills the program as “high-speed rail,” most U.S. projects won’t reach the speeds seen in Europe and Asia. California’s trains would be by far the fastest, exceeding the 200 mph achieved by some trains overseas.

Some of the money will go toward trains with top speeds of 110 mph, while other funds — such as the $400 million allotted to Ohio to connect Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati — will be for trains traveling no faster than 79 mph.

The White House said rail projects will create or save thousands of jobs in areas including track laying, manufacturing, planning, engineering and rail maintenance and operations.
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Southsider2k12
post Feb 1 2010, 09:31 AM
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Hey Joe, my question for you is do you see the part about the Peanut Bridge not needing to be replaced in order to support high speed rail? Everything I had ever heard was that for pretty much any improvements that needed to be done over there would include the replacement of that outdated bridge.
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joe.black
post Feb 1 2010, 11:08 AM
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QUOTE(southsiderMMX @ Feb 1 2010, 10:31 AM) *

Hey Joe, my question for you is do you see the part about the Peanut Bridge not needing to be replaced in order to support high speed rail? Everything I had ever heard was that for pretty much any improvements that needed to be done over there would include the replacement of that outdated bridge.


I don't see how they're going to do HSR with that bridge. It's not in terrible shape, but you need very high quality, well-maintained structures to support true HSR. The 110 mph trains are not truly HSR - they're a sub-category that currently is going by the (IMHO) misnomer "higher speed rail" (meaning higher than conventional speed, but people sometimes confuse this as being some kind of super-HSR with 300 mph+ speeds).
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mcstumper
post Feb 1 2010, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE(joe.black @ Feb 1 2010, 11:08 AM) *

I don't see how they're going to do HSR with that bridge. It's not in terrible shape, but you need very high quality, well-maintained structures to support true HSR. The 110 mph trains are not truly HSR - they're a sub-category that currently is going by the (IMHO) misnomer "higher speed rail" (meaning higher than conventional speed, but people sometimes confuse this as being some kind of super-HSR with 300 mph+ speeds).


I want to make sure we are on the same page, because I think we are talking about two different bridges. There is the Trail Creek swing bridge, which I think is the one SS'er is referencing as the report indicating would not need to be replaced for HSR. The Peanut Bridge is currently part of a walking trail bridge over Trail Creek just northeast of the City's waste water treatment plant on 8th St. It used to be part of a line that went from the South Shore shops up to the Amtrak line just west of where Pioneer lumber is now...


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joe.black
post Feb 3 2010, 06:49 AM
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QUOTE(mcstumper @ Feb 1 2010, 06:33 PM) *

I want to make sure we are on the same page, because I think we are talking about two different bridges. There is the Trail Creek swing bridge, which I think is the one SS'er is referencing as the report indicating would not need to be replaced for HSR. The Peanut Bridge is currently part of a walking trail bridge over Trail Creek just northeast of the City's waste water treatment plant on 8th St. It used to be part of a line that went from the South Shore shops up to the Amtrak line just west of where Pioneer lumber is now...


Ahh, didn't catch that. The bridge that would need some rehab to support what is being called in the industry "higher speed rail" (up to 110 mph) is the Trail Creek swing bridge, not the Peanut Bridge.
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