[lovethiscity]

FYI

PUBLIC FORUM REMINDER


Location of the South Shore Rails in Michigan City - PUBLIC FORUM, Thursday, December 4th at 6:30 p.m. in the City Council chambers, 100 East Michigan Blvd., Michigan City, Indiana




The cost-benefit analysis on the location of the South Shore rails in Michigan City is underway. The analysis team, Chuck D'Aprix of Economic Development Visions, Stuart Sirota of TND Planning Group, and economist Joseph Cater have begun their research.


Discussions with stakeholders are underway and the analysis team has arrived to Michigan City.


The goal of our cost-benefit analysis is to project the cost and benefits of each of the three proposed locations of the South Shore rails in Michigan City. Other options not yet proposed will also be open to discussion.


A critical part of the analysis is a public forum.


All are encouraged to participate in the public forum which is scheduled for Thursday, December 4th at 6:30 p.m. in the City Council Chambers at City Hall, 100 East Michigan Blvd., Michigan City, Indiana.


The objectives of the public forum are three-fold:


1. Our cost-benefit analysis team will explain in detail why we are conducting this analysis and present our objectives.


2. We invite all stakeholders, city officials, business owners, and members of the public to attend to share their input on the location of the South Shore in Michigan City


3. We will propose next action steps including the scheduling of a final forum where the final results of our cost benefit analysis will be presented.


We look forward to a meaningful community discussion on this vital issue. We hope to see you there!

[CaddyRich]

I hope a CBTL'er is there to give us a report...alas, I am working.

[Johnny Rush]

After getting enough calls and emails from people interested in the forum...we will be playing the entire thing from 9 to 11am on Friday...and some time TBD over the weekend. It really seemed like everyone involved wanted to keep it on 11th, build or renovate a train station and maybe elevate it so that all the doors can be opened. There was some talk of trying to make it an intermodal hub with buses and alternate trains...but really...I don't see how fixing the loading station of the South Shore is going to suddenly cause business to come running.

I may be missing something big...this was just another step in the "develop a plan" process, so I hope there are many more layers. I've been up and down the South Shore line...and I don't see business booming even at the nicer hubs.

[Homey]

I agree with your opinion JR.

Many questions....not enough strong solutions or planning. Will it make a significant change to the downtown area? Only great planning and time will tell.

[Johnny Rush]

Well, I'm re-listening to it now to work on the news clips and really Chuck Dupree and Stuart Sirota (our consultants) didn't really give too much of an opinion (from what I understood, they are still 100% in the information gathering stage and will report back with their economic opinion in around 6 weeks). It was John Parsons of NICTD that was hammering home the 11th street improvements throughout the meeting...and the people that got up to speak from the general public seemed to want 11th street as well...I'll check back in if I notice anything else different during my re-listen.

I'm still not really excited yet...

[Southsider2k12]

http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...ArticleID=19441

South Shore options mulled

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Most of the questions asked at a public forum on possible locations for the South Shore railway in Michigan City were directed to officials of the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District.

The open meeting Thursday drew a crowd that filled the City Council Chambers.

NICTD spokesman John Parsons and chief operating officer Joe Black were invited to join the three consultants who are analyzing the costs and benefits of the three locations. NICTD wants to improve service and reduce travel times on the South Shore, and has considered moving the line south to the CSX tracks along Ames Field.

Parsons and Black said they preferred to keep the South Shore running through the 11th Street corridor. But upgrades would be needed and 11th Street poses a number of problems.

"There are concerns with respect to 'street running,' with tracks embedded into asphalt," he said. "We're trying to enhance the safety of operations and comply with the new federal railway safety act. We need a plan for positive train control by 2010. As long as there are embedded tracks, we won't have train control. It's never been an issue before."

Parsons said its going to be "extremely expensive" to fully implement new positive train control plans by 2015, as federally required, at any of the locations. He said the CSX location could cost about $70 million and the 11th Street location about $65 million. The northern route in conjunction with Amtrak would require 8,000 feet of elevated bridge track that could run about $200 million.

NICTD wants to increase operating speeds by having floor-level boarding rather than steps into and out of the train and by having only one station. Michigan City will most likely have one station at or near the present 11th Street site, rather than at Carroll Avenue.

Rich Murphy, 1st Ward city council member, was instrumental in organizing the forum and said it was important to have NICTD officials present.

"We saw an opportunity to have them come tonight and update us on where they are (with plans)," Murphy said. "It doesn't change our original mission of having a true public forum and making a good decision for the city." He was pleased with the turnout at the forum and emphasized the need for city officials, NICTD and members of the community - all of whom were in attendance - to cooperate on "this huge undertaking."

Consultants Chuck D'Aprix, founder of Economic Development Visions, Stuart Sirota, of TND Planning Group, and economist Joseph Cater are at the beginning stages of analyzing the costs and benefits of the proposed railway locations to the economic development of Michigan City.

D'Aprix said they don't favor one location over another and will not recommend one over the others. They will provide facts and figures on 50 to 60 different factors and consider the short- and long-term impacts of each location, providing information the city can use to make a decision.

D'Aprix and Sirota talked about the importance of transit-oriented development, referring to developments of new businesses and residences springing up around transportation hubs.

"It's the introduction of mixed use development that's pedestrian friendly, with wide sidewalks and businesses fronting the streets." Sirota said. "Michigan City is ideally oriented to be a great transit-oriented development. People want to be within walking distance of cool shops and within a half mile of a train or bus." In order to entice potential economic development investors, it's important to have a definite plan for one location, D'Aprix said.

"It's difficult to thrive in economic development in a sea of transit uncertainty," he said. "Fifty-five percent of retail site selectors say public transportation is very important."

D'Aprix, the team leader, expects a draft report to be ready in six to seven weeks. Another public forum will be scheduled to present final results of the cost-benefit analysis, he said.

q

Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com

[Roger Kaputnik]

We need to keep this on the front burner, and no one can do this like cbtl.

[jb9152]

Spoke to the railroad's new COO, who was there at the forum. An "11th Street corridor" option with all in-street running eliminated is the South Shore's preferred option. They are staying out of the economic development discussions and processes. Their arguments seem to me to be three-fold:

1. Continuing any form of street running is not a viable option (Federal Railway Safety Act of 2008 puts the nail in its coffin by mandating all passenger railroads install Positive Train Control by 2015 - PTC cannot be done with in-street track; maintenance and operating costs for the in-street running are higher than anywhere else on the railroad, and the infrastructure there is prone to failure)

2. Station consolidation is necessary to reduce costs, trim boarding times, and to provide more and better passenger amenities at a single downtown station, along with a lot more parking than exists today at the two present locations

3. The southern (CSX) route has its own problems operationally, does not allow expansion with a second track, and is the second most expensive option after the Amtrak option; the Amtrak route is much more expensive than the others, turns over dispatching authority of South Shore trains to Amtrak for a portion of their route, and cuts off some of the South Shore Freight's customers; this leaves a downtown route, and keeping the operation within the 11th Street corridor, where it already operates, makes the most sense from a number of different standpoints - it's certainly the most direct route from the Shops to the Sheridan Avenue connection to the "non street running" portion of the railroad

All that said, it didn't seem to me that the railroad was truly "pushing" 11th Street as such, but more pointing out why the current operation there cannot continue the way it is. I think they'd be OK with any option that gets the track out of the asphalt, consolidates stations in Michigan City, provides more parking, and allows for future double track. The 11th Street corridor just seems to be the most logical place to accomplish that, from a cost, operational, and travel time perspective.

[edgeywood]

All that said, it didn't seem to me that the railroad was truly "pushing" 11th Street as such, but more pointing out why the current operation there cannot continue the way it is. I think they'd be OK with any option that gets the track out of the asphalt, consolidates stations in Michigan City, provides more parking, and allows for future double track. The 11th Street corridor just seems to be the most logical place to accomplish that, from a cost, operational, and travel time perspective.

I listened to the re-broadcast on WIMS this morning (thanks, Johnny!). I was surprised to hear the railroad voice even this lukewarm support for the 11th Street route. Previously, they were all about the southern option.

For Michigan City, it's the only route that makes sense, IMO.

[jb9152]

I listened to the re-broadcast on WIMS this morning (thanks, Johnny!). I was surprised to hear the railroad voice even this lukewarm support for the 11th Street route. Previously, they were all about the southern option.

For Michigan City, it's the only route that makes sense, IMO.

Funny - everyone I know at the South Shore did NOT like the southern option. It doesn't allow for a second track, it involves a crazy backwards movement out of the yard to originate trains and an even nuttier movement to add cars to trains coming from South Bend, and it made NICTD a tenant on CSX right of way. Not one person that I talked to, including many senior managers, liked it.

At one time, so I've been told, it was viewed as the only viable option. But there has apparently been a lot more study of the problem and possible solutions, and it turns out that staying downtown is the best as far as the railroad is concerned.

Just goes to show, I guess, that the rumor mill runs strong in the city by the lake. Amazing what a little communication will do.

[eric.hanke]

Just leave the damn thing where it is and concentrate on developing the north end of the city.

[edgeywood]

Funny - everyone I know at the South Shore did NOT like the southern option. It doesn't allow for a second track, it involves a crazy backwards movement out of the yard to originate trains and an even nuttier movement to add cars to trains coming from South Bend, and it made NICTD a tenant on CSX right of way. Not one person that I talked to, including many senior managers, liked it.

At one time, so I've been told, it was viewed as the only viable option. But there has apparently been a lot more study of the problem and possible solutions, and it turns out that staying downtown is the best as far as the railroad is concerned.

Just goes to show, I guess, that the rumor mill runs strong in the city by the lake. Amazing what a little communication will do.

Apparently Richard Murphy was also confused. http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=39850.81
"We believe Michigan City does have a say to where the South Shore goes," Murphy said. "NICTD clearly has a preference for the CSX, but all it's done is look at that option and what it would cost. No one looked at the economic benefits to Michigan City."

And Tim Bietry...http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=17240&TM=38969.4
"It's no secret that NICTD would like to run along the CSX tracks and do away with the two existing stations," Bietry said. "The trains could go faster, speeding up travel between Chicago and South Bend, and the move would cut down on maintenance costs."

The Dec. 5th meeting was the first public support I've heard from the South Shore for staying on 11th St.

[jb9152]

Apparently Richard Murphy was also confused. http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=39850.81
"We believe Michigan City does have a say to where the South Shore goes," Murphy said. "NICTD clearly has a preference for the CSX, but all it's done is look at that option and what it would cost. No one looked at the economic benefits to Michigan City."

And Tim Bietry...http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=17240&TM=38969.4
"It's no secret that NICTD would like to run along the CSX tracks and do away with the two existing stations," Bietry said. "The trains could go faster, speeding up travel between Chicago and South Bend, and the move would cut down on maintenance costs."

The Dec. 5th meeting was the first public support I've heard from the South Shore for staying on 11th St.

It's probably just that there has been no serious effort mounted up to this point to actually get the trains out of the street running. It's been talked about for decades, but there has been no tangible effort to make it reality, either via CSX, Amtrak, or in the current corridor. Frankly, I think NICTD has had other things to worry about, like getting its overhead wire system up to a state of good repair, completing the mid-life overhaul of its oldest cars, and procuring new cars. For all of the negative hype that sometimes surrounds the railroad, it has worked miracles since taking ownership of what had been a seriously derelict and maintenance-deferred facility.

Now, with the looming 2015 deadline to have PTC installed across the entire line (which is impossible on track embedded in asphalt), it's a very hot topic for the railroad. I can't explain why it hasn't been a hot topic for the city and other stakeholders up to this point, but a lot of things seem to be coming together now - the Andrews U. study, the Rich Murphy economic development study just starting, and the railroad's need to comply with the new federal law.

In any case, I'm glad that there seems to be some consensus building around the 11th Street corridor. That means that something can possibly be started soon - it will be a long process, and NICTD only has 7 years (not a long time in the planning world) to complete a track realignment and installation, testing, and commissioning of a new train control system.

[Dave]

We have other threads on here regarding NICTD's prior plans to move the station south, addressing issues such as tracks in asphalt and $60 to $100 million costs.

Nice to see you again jb9152.

But let's not gloss over the fact that this is the first time we've heard NICTD actually say out loud they want to stay in the 11th street corridor. When it looked like they had a shot at federal money to move down to the CSX tracks, they certainly seemed all for it. Heck, the morons in City Hall even kicked in $75K to help fund their engineering study regarding moving to the CSX right of way.

Note that said City Hall morons weren't willing to kick in $15K to do this study. Does anyone else wonder why that is?

As for NICTD showing up as the "special guests" at the December 5th meeting, and certain City Hall denizens doing the same, my view is that they showed up due to fear. They are afraid of what the study is going to show, which I personally think is pretty obvious -- moving away from 11th street would have a huge negative impact on the North End, and Michigan City in general in the long run. NICTD talked a lot about thier goals to have the trains run on time, and safely, etc., but that is not the reason NICTD exists. The reason they exist is to benefit the area where their trains run, primarily economically. I'm talking about the passenger service, not frieght -- and while the freight division may be their biggest customer, NICTD does not exist for the frieght division's benefit.

In one of the earlier threads I suggested for the same pricetag as moving the line south, NICTD could buy every house on 11th street from one end of town to the other, build a new station and a new parking facility, and save money. It appears that I was right, seeing as the number NICTD quoted was $65 million to stay in the 11th street corridor vs. $70 million to move to the southern route. I think their numbers may be high, but I could be wrong.

I think Michigan City ought to be willing to give up 11th street for car traffic in order to keep the train. Maybe they should do to 11th what they did to the north end of Franklin back in the 70's -- tear up the pavement and plant grass. However, as what may be the last electric interurban still in existence, one thing which could be possible (and I have to think NICTD has/is/is going to explore this possibility) would be a waiver of the federal law for two miles of track. Waivers are granted for specific circumstances all the time.

[jb9152]

As for NICTD showing up as the "special guests" at the December 5th meeting, and certain City Hall denizens doing the same, my view is that they showed up due to fear. They are afraid of what the study is going to show, which I personally think is pretty obvious -- moving away from 11th street would have a huge negative impact on the North End, and Michigan City in general in the long run. NICTD talked a lot about thier goals to have the trains run on time, and safely, etc., but that is not the reason NICTD exists. The reason they exist is to benefit the area where their trains run, primarily economically. I'm talking about the passenger service, not frieght -- and while the freight division may be their biggest customer, NICTD does not exist for the frieght division's benefit.

Good to see you too again, Dave!

I was at the forum, and I didn't see any fear whatsoever as a motivating factor. I know their new COO personally - not a friend, but an acquaintance from back east (we both worked on a few projects together, for different firms). We've spoken a few times. He was pretty adamant that the southern alignment was technically feasible, but it was not viewed by the railroad as the only choice, or even the best one. That's why further studies were commissioned. The latest engineering study that the railroad did with an independent consultant identified a "downtown" route as the most cost-effective. He certainly believed that from an operations standpoint, it made more sense than the southern route. He's also averse to the northern route, due to cost reasons and giving up control of his trains to Amtrak.

They had been thinking about what it would take to keep the railroad downtown for some time, and recently got some cost estimates and very conceptual ideas together. They waited until this public forum because of the serendipitous timing of the economic development study.

I would also say that it's nitpicking to say that NICTD doesn't exist to provide on time and safe service. In order to "benefit the area where their trains run", as you put it, it would seem to me to be a necessity to run on time, safe trains.

As to the freight service - of course NICTD doesn't exist to serve their needs. But there are contractual agreements in place, and a very mutually beneficial relationship, and it would seem to be imprudent to harm the freight company's interests when an equally viable plan could be launched at less overall cost (and less harm to the downtown, as you point out).

I think Michigan City ought to be willing to give up 11th street for car traffic in order to keep the train. Maybe they should do to 11th what they did to the north end of Franklin back in the 70's -- tear up the pavement and plant grass. However, as what may be the last electric interurban still in existence, one thing which could be possible (and I have to think NICTD has/is/is going to explore this possibility) would be a waiver of the federal law for two miles of track. Waivers are granted for specific circumstances all the time.

I think there are so many other reasons (which we have discussed in other threads, as you note) to get out of the asphalt that it would make little sense to go through the trouble of applying for a waiver. PTC is the most pressing and urgent reason, but it's hardly the only one. The interurban operation down 11th Street is an anachronism in the 21st Century, and for a railroad focused on bringing the system up to commuter rail standards and eliminating failure-prone pieces of their infrastructure like the overhead wire and the asphalt-embedded track, it's a glaring call for change.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what the economic development survey comes up with, but I think the idea of keeping the railroad in the 11th Street corridor, albeit out of the asphalt, is a good one.

[Dave]

Good to see you too again, Dave!

Always a pleasure!

I was at the forum, and I didn't see any fear whatsoever as a motivating factor. I know their new COO personally - not a friend, but an acquaintance from back east (we both worked on a few projects together, for different firms). We've spoken a few times. He was pretty adamant that the southern alignment was technically feasible, but it was not viewed by the railroad as the only choice, or even the best one. That's why further studies were commissioned. The latest engineering study that the railroad did with an independent consultant identified a "downtown" route as the most cost-effective. He certainly believed that from an operations standpoint, it made more sense than the southern route. He's also averse to the northern route, due to cost reasons and giving up control of his trains to Amtrak.

They had been thinking about what it would take to keep the railroad downtown for some time, and recently got some cost estimates and very conceptual ideas together. They waited until this public forum because of the serendipitous timing of the economic development study.

Isn't the COO relatively new to the scene, as in the past couple of months? It seems to me that NICTD's concerns about using other companies' right of ways is a new consideration -- I don't recall hearing about it during the speculation about moving to the CSX tracks.

As for the fear factor, well, NICTD didn't get involved or seem to give a damn during the Anderson U. charette, which appears to have won national level urban planning awards, but they seem to be showing up with bells on when a bunch of private citizens commission a little study regarding economic impact. Maybe it isn't fear, but I know I'm smelling something.

Are these ideas, studies, and estimates NICTD has been doing available for public viewing anywhere, preferably online?

I would also say that it's nitpicking to say that NICTD doesn't exist to provide on time and safe service. In order to "benefit the area where their trains run", as you put it, it would seem to me to be a necessity to run on time, safe trains.

If I have a multi-story building, I don't put an elevator in it so it will operate safely. No elevator at all would be pretty safe, wouldn't it? No, I put in an elevator to move myself and other people and objects from floor to floor when I want to. That's the reason the elevator exists. The timeliness and safety expectations are a given.

As to the freight service - of course NICTD doesn't exist to serve their needs. But there are contractual agreements in place, and a very mutually beneficial relationship, and it would seem to be imprudent to harm the freight company's interests when an equally viable plan could be launched at less overall cost (and less harm to the downtown, as you point out).

And to strain another metaphor, I have no problem with NICTD remembering where their bread is buttered -- as long as they remember that the passenger service is the bread.

I think there are so many other reasons (which we have discussed in other threads, as you note) to get out of the asphalt that it would make little sense to go through the trouble of applying for a waiver.

I remember those earlier conversions -- they are still on here somewhere, when I get ambitious I'll provide links-- but I have to think that NICTD has lobbyists and attorneys on staff who could be doing the waiver and/or extension of time applications if the other alternatives are worse than the status quo.

PTC is the most pressing and urgent reason, but it's hardly the only one. The interurban operation down 11th Street is an anachronism in the 21st Century, and for a railroad focused on bringing the system up to commuter rail standards and eliminating failure-prone pieces of their infrastructure like the overhead wire and the asphalt-embedded track, it's a glaring call for change.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what the economic development survey comes up with, but I think the idea of keeping the railroad in the 11th Street corridor, albeit out of the asphalt, is a good one.

Does NICTD even have a Public Relations department? While I agree it is an anachronism, that's part of its charm, and any decent PR dept. would be playing it up. "See the train the way your great grandparents did!" While you see most of these issues from an engineering viewpoint, the folks such as myself see this particular matter from a quality-of-life viewpoint, and not too surprisingly those viewpoints don't always mesh.

Though at this point what I could see as an optimum solution would be acquisition of adjacent properties on the south side of the 11th street corridor, some demolition, some streets no longer being through streets to cut down on the grade crossings, a new station and parking structure, and what would basically be a ribbon park running east-west where 11th street currently is. I'd really like to see what ideas the NICTD folks are contemplating.

[jb9152]

Always a pleasure!
Isn't the COO relatively new to the scene, as in the past couple of months? It seems to me that NICTD's concerns about using other companies' right of ways is a new consideration -- I don't recall hearing about it during the speculation about moving to the CSX tracks.

He's been here since last winter, before I arrived here over the summer. I know that he comes from a background of dealing with trackage rights agreements and the challenges/issues of having your trains dispatched by other railroads - that new concern is probably all him.

As for the fear factor, well, NICTD didn't get involved or seem to give a damn during the Anderson U. charette, which appears to have won national level urban planning awards, but they seem to be showing up with bells on when a bunch of private citizens commission a little study regarding economic impact. Maybe it isn't fear, but I know I'm smelling something.

Charettes, if you'll pardon my slight disdain, are pie in the sky. They have little to do with reality (especially financial), and engage mostly in "wouldn't it be nice" brainstorming and drawing a LOT of diagrams and wonderful artist renderings. I've been involved in many transportation-related charettes over the decades, and rarely do the areas/subjects they study look anything like what they envisioned 10 to 20 years hence. My sense from the railroad is that they are, like most railroaders, nothing if not practical and realistic to a fault. Planners are the dreamers; the people who actually have to operate it tend to have a much more ground-level concern with the mechanics - "this is all great, but how am I going to get my trains from here to here?"

The "showing up with bells on" - as it was explained to me, is just serendipitous. They've been looking at alternatives to the southern alignment off and on over the last few years. This private group is just starting their study, and I don't believe an 11th Street corridor with private right of way is something they were planning to consider. They met with NICTD (as they have with other stakeholders, apparently) and heard about this new (at least to the public) direction. I guess they decided that they wanted to put this out there, since the Amtrak and CSX alignments were already fairly well known by those that have been following the story.

Are these ideas, studies, and estimates NICTD has been doing available for public viewing anywhere, preferably online?

I don't think so. I didn't ask (probably should have!), but I haven't found anything. From what was said at the forum, the studies and estimates are conceptual, so it wouldn't surprise me if they'd want to refine it a lot more before committing to numbers. That's always been the case with the projects that I worked on, even the very high profile, high stakes ones.

If I have a multi-story building, I don't put an elevator in it so it will operate safely. No elevator at all would be pretty safe, wouldn't it? No, I put in an elevator to move myself and other people and objects from floor to floor when I want to. That's the reason the elevator exists. The timeliness and safety expectations are a given.

Of course they are, but there are things that have to happen every single day on any railroad (or, I guess, on any elevator) in order to ensure that. There would be no purpose in installing or operating an unsafe elevator or railroad. The railroad is saying that street operation on 11th is not the safest, most efficient, or most cost effective way of running. Take, for example, the rail breaks that happened on the early morning of Thanksgiving Day. There were 20+ breaks caused by a failure on a freight car's brake rigging equipment. If that had happened in the street, the railroad would have been offline for at least 3 to 4 days because track repairs in the asphalt are *much* more time-consuming. Plus, pretty much the entire street would have been torn up for a week or more. Finally, it would have cost much more money to repair.

If you have an elevator and it breaks down fairly often, and leaves you open to a catastrophic breakdown which might require your tenants to walk up 60+ stories for a week, you'd probably want to replace it with something safer, easier, and less costly to maintain.

And to strain another metaphor, I have no problem with NICTD remembering where their bread is buttered -- as long as they remember that the passenger service is the bread.

Why wouldn't they? They were chartered to take over the passenger service, and they've done an almost miraculous job of bringing the passenger service back from the brink of disaster. There are years more work that has to go into it before it's where it really needs to be, and getting out of the street in Michigan City is a big part of that.

I remember those earlier conversions -- they are still on here somewhere, when I get ambitious I'll provide links-- but I have to think that NICTD has lobbyists and attorneys on staff who could be doing the waiver and/or extension of time applications if the other alternatives are worse than the status quo.

But that's just it - I don't think they are, necessarily. The status quo seems to me to be the worst alternative. PTC is a very compelling argument, but it's not the only one. There are a list of issues that NICTD ticked off at the forum, any two or three of which would have convinced any reasonable person that, yes, it's time to dig the tracks out of the asphalt and move out of the 1920s.

Does NICTD even have a Public Relations department? While I agree it is an anachronism, that's part of its charm, and any decent PR dept. would be playing it up. "See the train the way your great grandparents did!" While you see most of these issues from an engineering viewpoint, the folks such as myself see this particular matter from a quality-of-life viewpoint, and not too surprisingly those viewpoints don't always mesh.

It is charming. So were the old orange cars, but you wouldn't want to rely on those to get to work in Chicago every day (I've heard the horror stories about them at the end of their lives in the 1980s). The South Shore Line is a commuter railroad now, like it or not, not a museum or tourist attraction. Keeping the street operation in place while you modernize all around is akin to (here I go with a metaphor) installing new steel security doors on your house, but keeping one old storm door with a half-working lock because it reminds you of your childhood. All of that public money spent on improving the wire, the signal system, and the rolling stock means little if you're still betting your operation on 1920s technology. It's the weakest link.

Though at this point what I could see as an optimum solution would be acquisition of adjacent properties on the south side of the 11th street corridor, some demolition, some streets no longer being through streets to cut down on the grade crossings, a new station and parking structure, and what would basically be a ribbon park running east-west where 11th street currently is. I'd really like to see what ideas the NICTD folks are contemplating.

It seemed to me at the forum that the railroad was not comfortable with talking about property acquisition or detailed plans just yet (I would think that a lot more analysis needs to be done). But I think what you've outlined would be a good conceptual plan. The devil, of course, is in the details.

[m4liberty]

Just curious as to whether there would be enough distance to build an elevated railway from Franklin to the east over Trail Creek to allow boating access and reconnect to the current line via peanut bridge. I see many advantages to this. I would hope Nipsco would be a good neighbor to aid our city with some use of the rail access they have that branches off on the west end of town.

[Southsider2k12]

We have other threads on here regarding NICTD's prior plans to move the station south, addressing issues such as tracks in asphalt and $60 to $100 million costs.

Nice to see you again jb9152.

But let's not gloss over the fact that this is the first time we've heard NICTD actually say out loud they want to stay in the 11th street corridor. When it looked like they had a shot at federal money to move down to the CSX tracks, they certainly seemed all for it. Heck, the morons in City Hall even kicked in $75K to help fund their engineering study regarding moving to the CSX right of way.

Note that said City Hall morons weren't willing to kick in $15K to do this study. Does anyone else wonder why that is?

As for NICTD showing up as the "special guests" at the December 5th meeting, and certain City Hall denizens doing the same, my view is that they showed up due to fear. They are afraid of what the study is going to show, which I personally think is pretty obvious -- moving away from 11th street would have a huge negative impact on the North End, and Michigan City in general in the long run. NICTD talked a lot about thier goals to have the trains run on time, and safely, etc., but that is not the reason NICTD exists. The reason they exist is to benefit the area where their trains run, primarily economically. I'm talking about the passenger service, not frieght -- and while the freight division may be their biggest customer, NICTD does not exist for the frieght division's benefit.

In one of the earlier threads I suggested for the same pricetag as moving the line south, NICTD could buy every house on 11th street from one end of town to the other, build a new station and a new parking facility, and save money. It appears that I was right, seeing as the number NICTD quoted was $65 million to stay in the 11th street corridor vs. $70 million to move to the southern route. I think their numbers may be high, but I could be wrong.

I think Michigan City ought to be willing to give up 11th street for car traffic in order to keep the train. Maybe they should do to 11th what they did to the north end of Franklin back in the 70's -- tear up the pavement and plant grass. However, as what may be the last electric interurban still in existence, one thing which could be possible (and I have to think NICTD has/is/is going to explore this possibility) would be a waiver of the federal law for two miles of track. Waivers are granted for specific circumstances all the time.

Here is my dream scenario... I'd like to hear how "realistic" that it is, or isn't. If it would cost the same to shutdown most of 11th street as it would to move the tracks anywhere else, why not do something really incredible down there? I have been to a lot of different towns that have taken their old downtown areas, and turned them into something like a big flea market or antique row kind of place. How awesome would it be to take traffic off of 11th street and then turn that corridor into some sort of shopping district? With the existsing Lighthouse Place and Blue Chip Casino already in place, the traffic is already there. Add in something like that to give MC an area that is unique in our region, and you could truely do something special, and it would tie well into what already exists in the community? You could build your station somewhere along the route, and still have plenty of space to grow this model. Plus you would literally be dumping foot traffic right into this district.

My question is how completely silly is the idea?

[Roger Kaputnik]

The advisory consultants are supposed to issue a report in about 6 weeks. I suggest all of us pester them in a nice way to make sure the report can be bruited all over town, not just in City Hall or in a private party in a tavern somewhere.
Av.
As far as closing 11th to traffic, where would that traffic go? All the other E/W streets are very residential, and none--even Barker Av.--offers the quick nonstop passage 11th does from Franklin to Michigan. Traffic west of Chicago St. is very light, and that accounts for about ¼ of the street-track segment from Sheridan to Michigan. More thoughts later.