[Dave]

A discussion of the merits, if any, of psychics and such.

Some people consider them to be harmless fun, entertainment value, etc.

Other folk can't tie their shoelaces in the morning without checking their horoscope first (might be a loafer day!).

And some of us think they are a waste of time and money.

I lean towards the last view. I won't waste time or money on a palm reading, tarot card reading, or the like. Either the person is good, which means they're good at cold reading (which never happens with me -- if you should ever get into a situation where someone is reading your palm or tea leaves, try not giving them any information to work with and see how it goes. "I see someone important to you, his name starts with a J ...", instead of saying "That must be my cousin Jacob!" answer "Oh, really?" and see how far it goes), or they aren't, and they just kind of flop around like a fish out of water ("or maybe it is a "K"? No? "L"? No? MNOPQRST.....), which can be amusing but after doing it a couple of times it's just kind of sad.

Some of those folks who have taken this line of work to relieve others of their hard earned money do it because, IMNSHO, they have deluded themselves into sincerely believing in it, and others do it purely for the cash. The latter group in my experience are better sports about getting caught being totally wrong, but that doesn't necessarily make them better people.

I'm the first to concede that wierd stuff happens in life, but explaining the wierd with what is essentially magic isn't necessary -- we can just call it coincidence, or just leave it at wierd, and let it go. But humans like to find patterns and reasons for things even when there is no reason. Bowl a perfect game when your left shoe is untied, and you may never tie your left shoe again (at least not your left bowling shoe), but that doesn't mean that's what caused you to bowl that game.

OK, ante up folks, what are your thoughts?

[Tim]

Game on! I think it's total bullshit. Now, some might say "What about a magician - he's not really sawing the lady in half. Isn't that BS too?" The difference is a magician does his act with the preconceived idea that what he's doing is not real. Psychics seem to think that what they do IS real - herein lies the problem. It's not real. Were a psychic to go into her act with the same criteria as a magician - that it's just harmless fun but not real - maybe that wouldn't be so bad. But there's no such thing as haunted houses - asking for money to take you on a tour of haunted houses in LaPorte County is, in my opinion, a shameless rip-off.

[Southsider2k12]

How about some real estate? I can sell you the second street bridge Tim!

[Tim]

How about some real estate? I can sell you the second street bridge Tim!

I'm in!

[MC Born & Raised]

How about some real estate? I can sell you the second street bridge Tim!

HEY!!! You already promised that to me!! Jerk.

[Southsider2k12]

HEY!!! You already promised that to me!! Jerk.

I said I am looking for the highest bidder!

[MC Born & Raised]

I said I am looking for the highest bidder!

Well, I'm not budging one penny over the $27 we agreed on.

[Tim]

I said I am looking for the highest bidder!

Do you mean like Fast Times At Ridgemont High "highest"? 'Cause I could go for that action!

[Dave]

Agreed on the point about magicians. Shoot, some of them call themselves "Illusionists" -- no claim that they are doing magic (or is it spelled "magick" now?), they come right out and say they are performers. James Randi is one of my heroes (though some folks say he's kind of a jerk, but most of them are people he caught table rapping and whatnot).

I'd love to see someone do a palm reading and afterward explain how they did the cold read. Actually, I'm going to check youtube for that.

The last thing I would do would be to let a psychic know in advance that I'm coming to them for a reading. At least, not if I have to give them my name in advance, because then they wouldn't be cold reading, they'd be warm or even hot reading. If John Edwards (the TV psychic, not the politician) knew I was coming to him for a reading, he'd google me, find this website, and know all sorts of trivia about me.

If I were to ever go to a palm reader, I'd role play -- I'd pick a pseudonym, pick a fictional character and act as much like him as I could, and see how incredibly far off they were just for laughs.

The primary reason I don't do this is because none of these folks give a money back if not satisfied guarantee, and I don't want to promote what they're doing with my hard earned dollars.

As for the bridges, southsider already sold me the seventh street bridge for a sweet price, so eat your hearts out!!

[Ang]

Well, I happen to believe there ARE such things as haunted houses and I lived in one. Actually, I've lived in two over the course of my life, AND I've seen a ghost. It was quite remarkable actually. And what's more, I can sense a haunt in a house. There are several houses in MC that have spirits in them.

If it were within my budget, I would pay to go on a ghost tour. I really would. I wouldn't do it with the expectation that I am going to see a ghost, but places deemed haunted intrigue me. One place I would truly love to visit is the Scooby Doo house on Small Rd. (So called because it looks like a house you would see on Scooby Doo) That place gives off so much energy when I pass by and there is no doubt in my mind it's haunted.

As for being psychic, I believe people have the ability to divine the future with or without the help of tools (tarot, crystal ball, palms, etc) I believe more people claim to have the ability than actually do have it, but there are people out there who honestly can "predict" the future.

[Tim]

As for being psychic, I believe people have the ability to divine the future with or without the help of tools (tarot, crystal ball, palms, etc) I believe more people claim to have the ability than actually do have it, but there are people out there who honestly can "predict" the future.

We're obviously on opposite sides on this one - and we're pals so you know I'm not trying to "flame" you, Ang - but do you know of any instances where someone has actually predicted the future?

[Dave]

There are those who claim my house is haunted. We joke about it whenever we here a thump in the night.

Don't believe it myself. The total lack of credible evidence for one.

Cold spot in a haunted house? It's called a draft.

Thumps in the night? House settling, expansion/contraction of building members due to heating/cooling.

Camera flares? There are much simpler explanations for that than the presence of invisible-to-the-human-eye ectoplasm. Like poor photography.

As for predicting the future, ever look at one of the supermarket tabloids with annual predictions? No better than random. I'll believe someone can tell the future when they can tell me tomorrow's lottery numbers two times out of two.

[Tim]

While I agree with you about the seeing the future thing, Dave - I'd like to hear Ang's take on that before I ... go off. Maybe she's had an experience in this area. I certainly don't think she's a crackpot!

[Ang]

ESP: It's not like that. "Tomorrow this fantastic thing is going to happen." It's more like, "I have a bad feeling about tomorrow, so be careful." When people "predict" specific events or occurrences at specific times or dates, I believe they are fakers. I honestly don't think that that type of "seeing the future" is legitimate. However, on a personal level, it's more like guidance or advice. You have this situation in your life and I feel it's going to get better because.... or worse because of these other circumstances. I have only paid a "psychic" once, and that was a card reader when I was in high school. It's funny, but she told me waaaaayyyyyyy back then that I would have three children, I would be married once to a fair-haired man but it wouldn't last long, and bunch of other stuff I don't remember. The thing is, some of what she said came true. All those years ago I thought she was FOS, I had my life planned and that's the way things were going to go. But I was wrong and she was right, at least my distant future part was right. And one time they had a psychic on WEFM (this was in the 80's) and you could call in and talk to her. I was the switchboard operator at Memorial Hospital and I called in to talk to her (yeah, yeah, I know I shouldn't have done that at work, but it was early Saturday morning and very quiet at the hospital). As soon as she answered, my switchboard went crazy, like half the town started calling at once. I had the sound off on the switchboard but the lady on the phone said, "I see a bunch of blinking lights where you are" Hmmm...... She had no way of knowing that the switchboard was all lit up because the sound was off.

Ghosts: Dave, your house DOES have a spirit in it. I sense her when I drive by. I believe she mostly just watches the world through a window facing toward the lake. I'll bet she likes you and A and that's why doesn't bother you, but she is there.

[Dave]

Ang, I could have predicted when you were in high school that you would have one child, and I would have been right. Because at some point in the future you did have one child -- you added more, but for a period of time you had one. If you had had six kids, you could tell me now the psychic from high school was right -- from 1998 to 2000 (or whenever you had three until your had four.)

Ever hear of a phenomenon called "confirmation bias"? All those things the psychic told you that you don't remember were the misses, and he/she got a couple of them right. People tend to remember the 2% of the predictions that are hits and discount the 98% that are misses.

I found an interesting youtube video -- here's the link -- on cold reading. I'm going to spoil the story for this discussion, but the video is still good to watch, if a bit long.

In a nutshell, the person doing the cold reading goes to several sites around the world -- England, the US, Spain -- and gets a group of people, has them do some stuff which is misdirection (gets birth dates, drawings by the subjects, a "personal item"), and tells them he is going to use these things to do a personality assessment. The subjects, after reading the assessments, are amazed at how accurate the cold reader was. Until they discover that all of them have gotten the same document as their assessment.

People are predictable, and the human condition doesn't very that much from person to person, At least not so much that a cold reader can't come up with generalities that suit just about anybody. And the misses? Those get discounted. Confirmation bias makes the hits appear so much more than they really are.

As for my house having a spirit looking out towards the lake, that's going to be a hard sell for me to buy. There was a suicide in our house a few years back, and I have a dog that likes to sit and look out the window, but both of those involve males, so they can't be the spirit you're referring to.

[Dave]

Alice, before I take apart your post, let me say that as a local businessperson I wish you all the luck in the world. And also, what follows is not me speaking as a moderator, but as a poster. You may have noticed in the other thread that I was speaking as a moderator when I asked Tim to take this issue to another thread, and I started this thread to discuss matters psychic so as to not gum up that other thread.

In my defense of Psychics or the paranormal it is a persons choice on what they believe or not believe.

No doubt here. I can believe in fairies, leprechauns, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Zeus, Odin, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn if I want to. Of course, if I do, and I tell people about it, it is reasonable for me to expect those people to draw conclusions about me based on my expressed beliefs.

You have a very poor way of thinking sir.

How quaint.

It is form of entertaiment and no I never ask anyone any questions when I do readings.

I have no problem with folks spending their hard earned money on entertainment, be it a palm reading, playing pinball, or whatever. As long as they know it's entertainment.

As for not asking your subjects questions, I have to doubt that. You don't ask them their name, when they were born, or anything at all? Really?

Some true believers cold read without consciously knowing it, they honestly think they have a gift. I suppose you could be in this group.

I am provding this area with a form of entertainment as I said what is worse going to the boat and spending all your money now thats a real way of taking someones Hard earned Money.

As I said, as long as people see it as a form of amusement, I have no problem with it. I am a bit concerned about people who take it so seriously that they can talk with their deceased relatives that they pay their life savings to charlatans, e.g. John Edwards on TV.

My readings are fun and people enjoy them keeps them from drinking for a while also maybe Im a good thing so no one goes out after having to many and kills someoone.

Just because what people give you money for is better than something else they could do with their money does not make your service a positive good. No doubt it's better for people to give you money for a reading than spending the money on crack, but arguably it's better for them to spend the money on booze than to spend it on crack as well.

This is not my way to make a living I work a real job also if you go to my website www.mysticinvestigations.net you might be enlightened.

I've been to your website. I went there the first time you posted on this message board. That's where I got the "invisible-to-the-human-eye ectoplasm vs. poor photography" remark I made in post #12 above.

All this is done in the memory of my son who got killed 6 years ago so if you have a heart which I can see you do not you might just keep your low remarks to your self as with a few other people on this forum can do too

My condolences for your loss.
However, if you feel a few skeptical remarks are enough for you to get insulting, I would suggest you may not be as confidant in your beliefs as you wish you were.

This post has been edited by Dave: Feb 25 2010, 02:29 PM

[Tim]

In my defense of Psychics or the paranormal it is a persons choice on what they believe or not believe. You have a very poor way of thinking sir.

Why - because he doesn't buy into your bullshit? Stop comparing your tricks to the boat, where you can actually win money. You're selling a lie. The fact that people buy it doesn't make it any less a lie.

[Tim]

The boat is a lie

Nope. The boat states it mission clearly.

Do you speak English?

[MC Born & Raised]

The boat is a lie and you know it most people who go there dont win so if anyone is selling a lie its them, at least the people who come see me dont leave there kids out in the car dont lose everything they have buy a promise of maybe winning, You are a sad person to a person a liar

Finally, a comma. Congrats!

As for this discussion, I mean, people can spend their money on what they wanna spend it on. Personally, I think it's a bunch of hooey (sp?) and these people are con artists and swindlers of the worst kind. It seems like many times they dig and dig until they strike an emotional chord and then exploit it for the rest of the "reading." Some people are very good at reading others. I play a lot of poker and I see it in certain people I play against. They're very good at reading you and they know how to use it. But at least they're up front about their intentions: They want to take all your money.

[Tim]

Yes do you ???????????? Born and raised right here Glad I dont work for you you are very sad

Do you admit what you do is fake?