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> North end could be "choice area", Andrews North End Plan discussion
Roger Kaputnik
post Jun 12 2008, 09:26 AM
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Main points:

1. The model to use for the Lakefront and the Trail Creek corridor is Grant Park, though in miniature: Open, accessible, useful to the general public.

2. Maximize the target area instead of focusing on narrow strips on a couple of streets. Think Brazil, not Chile.

3. Develop an East-West corridor, targeted for commercial development, from Lighthouse Place to the Boat.



In an outline, these would be the Roman numerals. Each would get several subpoints, naturally, and these can be added as time permits. Perhaps I will start a new thread to put this more complete outline in enk.









Enk (n.) from E-lectronic i-NK, meaning material presented in electronic media. ©Roger Kaputnik 2008; permission to use is given as long as credit is not claimed by the user.


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JHeath
post Jun 12 2008, 10:01 AM
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QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Jun 12 2008, 10:26 AM) *

Enk (n.) from E-lectronic i-NK, meaning material presented in electronic media. ©Roger Kaputnik 2008; permission to use is given as long as credit is not claimed by the user.

Off topic, I know...but I saw this word in the Urban Dictionary a week or two ago.

This post has been edited by JHeath: Jun 12 2008, 10:01 AM
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Roger Kaputnik
post Jun 12 2008, 11:04 AM
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I think I put it here before then. I will still stand on my copyright unless they show that they published it first. If they did, here is my official statement: Dang it!!!


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Michelle
post Jun 12 2008, 11:11 AM
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QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Jun 12 2008, 12:04 PM) *

I think I put it here before then. I will still stand on my copyright unless they show that they published it first. If they did, here is my official statement: Dang it!!!


Haha. Please say you'll file suit with that as your argument. I love it biggrin.gif
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Roger Kaputnik
post Jun 12 2008, 11:14 AM
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Who is the lawyer on the MB?


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Dave
post Jun 12 2008, 11:34 AM
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QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Jun 12 2008, 10:26 AM) *

Main points:

1. The model to use for the Lakefront and the Trail Creek corridor is Grant Park, though in miniature: Open, accessible, useful to the general public.

2. Maximize the target area instead of focusing on narrow strips on a couple of streets. Think Brazil, not Chile.

3. Develop an East-West corridor, targeted for commercial development, from Lighthouse Place to the Boat.


Points 1 and 2 are not what I was looking for, as they really aren't concrete proposals for action. They may be goals to aim for, and maybe we need another thread for them. I can say this, though -- Chicago and Michigan City are geographically too dissimilar to model one's lakefront park on the other, and to the extent that it can be, I think Washington Park already fills the bill as keeping the lake front public space. Discussion of the removal of the NIPSCO plant should probably be in another thread, though I can see that as a goal to strive for as well.

As for point 3, creating an east-west corridor from the Blue Chip to Lighthouse Place, are you proposing an additional bridge across Trail Creek? If you are, where's the money going to come from to give another access point to the Blue Chip? If you aren't, the existing bridges at E street and US 12 would have to be part of the plan, wouldn't they? I'll eliminate E street, seeing as an east-west commercial corridor on 8th street would pretty effectively gut Elston Grove as a residential area, and I can personally guarantee that that could not be done without years and years and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars of litigation.

If you're east-west corridor is to use the US 12 bridge over Trail Creek, from what I can see from google maps, with the exception of the south side of the street between Spring and Pine and some municipal properties, US 12 along that stretch is all commercial property already. What exactly would you do to promote development on that corridor? I can think of two properties on that corridor that could be used in a different manner than they currently are -- City Hall and the library. But if you're doing something to the library anyway, why not run Franklin Street straight through at the same time?

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Roger Kaputnik
post Jun 12 2008, 01:42 PM
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In the following, Dave's part is in italics, mine in regular type.






Points 1 and 2 are not what I was looking for, as they really aren't concrete proposals for action. They may be goals to aim for, and maybe we need another thread for them.

They are meant to be major divisions of discussion and planning. Specific proposals would be entered as subtopics.


I can say this, though -- Chicago and Michigan City are geographically too dissimilar to model one's lakefront park on the other, and to the extent that it can be, I think Washington Park already fills the bill as keeping the lake front public space.

Grant Park is mentioned as a model whose general conception is to be an open, accessible front yard to the city. It is not tucked apart from Chicago, it is, as one might say, right there! Washington Park is separated from the bulk of MC by the Creek. My idea is to extend the Park into the heart of the city by using the Trail Creek corridor.


Discussion of the removal of the NIPSCO plant should probably be in another thread, though I can see that as a goal to strive for as well.

Removal of the NIPSCo plant comes under the heading of Major Undertakings. Think of what is involved: Relocation of rail lines, power lines, the building itself, environmental impact reviews of the new site, loss of property tax income, etc.



As for point 3, creating an east-west corridor from the Blue Chip to Lighthouse Place, are you proposing an additional bridge across Trail Creek?

No.

If you are, where's the money going to come from to give another access point to the Blue Chip? If you aren't, the existing bridges at E street and US 12 would have to be part of the plan, wouldn't they?

Not sure of your point. But in any case, I think the area along the Creek to the new park and the part of 12 to around where the drive-in used to be (around the art gallery that is or was there on the North side of 12) or to about where the new Pioneer Lumber is could be included.

I'll eliminate E street, seeing as an east-west commercial corridor on 8th street would pretty effectively gut Elston Grove as a residential area, and I can personally guarantee that that could not be done without years and years and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars of litigation.

Actually, I have hear Roger Potratz discuss the development of 6th St. as the E/W corridor but just from Wabash St. to Michigan Blvd., which is where it already is. The impact on the residential areas of the so-called Elston Grove area is minimal. The city already owns the old Memorial site. Most of the rest is open or already commercial.




If you're east-west corridor is to use the US 12 bridge over Trail Creek, from what I can see from google maps, with the exception of the south side of the street between Spring and Pine and some municipal properties, US 12 along that stretch is all commercial property already. What exactly would you do to promote development on that corridor?

Exactly? I think whatever anyone would do: Improve ease of access, improve traffic flow, for starters, and demonstrate some change in thinking from that of the previous 40 years. Exactly?? What would anyone do exactly?


I can think of two properties on that corridor that could be used in a different manner than they currently are -- City Hall and the library. But if you're doing something to the library anyway, why not run Franklin Street straight through at the same time?

I am not thinking of making 12 the E/W commercial corridor, so this part is not relevevant. However, I would say that the 6th St thing is to make it a RETAIL commercial corridor, not industrial. I would suggest two-waytraffic on Pine and Washington Sts. be studied. Downtowns all over the place have plenty of one-ways, and it really is not what makes or breaks an area. It would shake things up here, tho', and that is a good thing. You know where I think the Franklin St. canard should go.


One thing that has not been discusssd too much is the access to the beach and lake west of NIPSCo from the Park School area. Whaddya think?


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Dave
post Jun 12 2008, 03:43 PM
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QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Jun 12 2008, 02:42 PM) *

Grant Park is mentioned as a model whose general conception is to be an open, accessible front yard to the city. It is not tucked apart from Chicago, it is, as one might say, right there! Washington Park is separated from the bulk of MC by the Creek. My idea is to extend the Park into the heart of the city by using the Trail Creek corridor.


Let me see if I understand what you want here. Your proposal is to create greenspace, on one side or the other of Trail Creek (no way no how the Blue Chip is moving in the forseeable future), from Washington Park to Hansen Park, and possibly all the way to Krueger Park? Interesting idea. I could see where that would be very pretty. I don't see how it would encourage economic redevelopment, though. As for the "heart of the city,", I'm not sure how one determines where the "heart" of a city is, but if geography has anything to do with it, the heart of MC is at least a mile south of 11th street.

QUOTE

Removal of the NIPSCo plant comes under the heading of Major Undertakings. Think of what is involved: Relocation of rail lines, power lines, the building itself, environmental impact reviews of the new site, loss of property tax income, etc.

Agreed. I think it's going to happen sometime in the next 25 years, plus or minus five years. It isn't going to be parkland, though, it's going to be ridiculously expensive condos and cottages.

QUOTE
Actually, I have hear Roger Potratz discuss the development of 6th St. as the E/W corridor but just from Wabash St. to Michigan Blvd., which is where it already is. The impact on the residential areas of the so-called Elston Grove area is minimal. The city already owns the old Memorial site. Most of the rest is open or already commercial.


OK, I couldn't see this too well on googlemaps, so I just went on a field trip. I counted 25 residences on 6th street between Pine and Michigan Blvd. Maybe that's minimal, if you don't personally live there, or if it isn't your neighbors who would be displaced. And how would this happen? Eminent domain proceedings to take people's houses from them so someone can put in a Starbucks? I thought you and I agreed on that sort of use of eminent domain.

QUOTE
Exactly? I think whatever anyone would do: Improve ease of access, improve traffic flow, for starters, and demonstrate some change in thinking from that of the previous 40 years. Exactly?? What would anyone do exactly?


Roger, how can you actually talk about ease of access and improved traffic flow, and call for change in the planning of the past, and practically in the same breath call reopening Franklin Street and making it two way a "canard"? If that damn library wasn't there, ease of access and traffic flow wouldn't even be an issue!


QUOTE
I am not thinking of making 12 the E/W commercial corridor, so this part is not relevevant. However, I would say that the 6th St thing is to make it a RETAIL commercial corridor, not industrial. I would suggest two-waytraffic on Pine and Washington Sts. be studied. Downtowns all over the place have plenty of one-ways, and it really is not what makes or breaks an area. It would shake things up here, tho', and that is a good thing. You know where I think the Franklin St. canard should go.


Heck, come sit on my front porch for an afternoon. Pine Street is two way now. On a typical afternoon at least half a dozen cars cruise past our place going the wrong way. I'm still surprised we haven't seen any head on collisions yet. As for the "canard," see above.

QUOTE
One thing that has not been discusssd too much is the access to the beach and lake west of NIPSCo from the Park School area. Whaddya think?


I think access to that area from the west side would be great, I just don't know how it could be done. US 12, the railroad tracks, and the power lines make that crossing a problem. I don't like pedestrian tunnels (in Chicago they have some for lakefront access under Lake Shore Drive, they're always full of graffiti, trash, and the occasional homeless person), the power lines would make a bridge difficult in addition to its already being expensive, and a street level access corridor, which would be my choice, could be hazardous for pedestrians vs. cars and trains. The best thing I can come up with off the top of my head would be a wide paved access strip roughly where Lincoln Ave. is, including a vehicle barrier and possibly a parking area. Some kind of barrier for pedestrians at the train tracks might be required, those gates that come down when the train is coming. I'd include a bike path running along the lake side of US 12 from at least Pine Street to Mt. Baldy, so people could cross over anywhere along that length for access.


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Michelle
post Jun 13 2008, 07:31 AM
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QUOTE(Dave @ Jun 12 2008, 04:43 PM) *

If that damn library wasn't there


I prefer reading this as:

"Durn library, get off my lawn!!! You pesky kids!"

It's funnier that way.

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Roger Kaputnik
post Jun 13 2008, 07:33 AM
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Nice work with the quotes--I wish I could do that!

Reply later.


I like your West Side Access ideas.


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mcstumper
post Jun 13 2008, 08:15 AM
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QUOTE
OK, I couldn't see this too well on googlemaps, so I just went on a field trip. I counted 25 residences on 6th street between Pine and Michigan Blvd. Maybe that's minimal, if you don't personally live there, or if it isn't your neighbors who would be displaced. And how would this happen? Eminent domain proceedings to take people's houses from them so someone can put in a Starbucks? I thought you and I agreed on that sort of use of eminent domain.


Why would 6th St be the E/W route of choice instead of 5th St? 5th is wider and has no residences on it. Also, it empties right out into the Blocksom property, which is where the heavily lifting in the redevelopment arena is going to be in years to come. Would it be nice if your EW corridor took you directly from the Lighthouse place to your new riverside commercial/dining/entertainment/greenspace district?


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Southsider2k12
post Jun 13 2008, 08:41 AM
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QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Jun 13 2008, 08:33 AM) *

Nice work with the quotes--I wish I could do that!

Reply later.
I like your West Side Access ideas.


Its not too hard. As you reply, enter in the quote text your self [ quote ], and [ / quote ] except no spaces in between the words.
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Dave
post Jun 13 2008, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE(mcstumper @ Jun 13 2008, 09:15 AM) *

Why would 6th St be the E/W route of choice instead of 5th St? 5th is wider and has no residences on it. Also, it empties right out into the Blocksom property, which is where the heavily lifting in the redevelopment arena is going to be in years to come. Would it be nice if your EW corridor took you directly from the Lighthouse place to your new riverside commercial/dining/entertainment/greenspace district?


In Roger's vision of the future, Trail Creek is a greenbelt -- public access, no "riverside commercial/dining/entertainment" to it.

As for the quote commands, like Southsider said. I surprised myself with that one, didn't preview, and didn't need to edit!
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Roger Kaputnik
post Jun 16 2008, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE(southsider2k7 @ Jun 13 2008, 09:41 AM) *


Its not too hard. As you reply, enter in the quote text your self [ quote ], and [ / quote ] except no spaces in between the words.



What keystrokes are involved? I see brackets and the word "quote" etc. in the post I "replied to here.


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Dave
post Jun 16 2008, 07:23 PM
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Roger, what you saw when you quoted southsider above was this --

[ quote name='southsider2k7' date='Jun 13 2008, 09:41 AM' post='10668']
Its not too hard. As you reply, enter in the quote text your self [ quote ], and [ / quote ] except no spaces in between the words.
[/ quote]

I added a space before the "q" in the two quote tags from southsider's post so you could see the coding. When you do a direct quote, the software adds that additional part -- name='southsider2k7' date='Jun 13 2008, 09:41 AM' post='10668' -- for purposes of identification, I suppose.

Basically what I did to break up your post was to insert additional bracketed "quote" and "/quote" tags.

so this (with spaces before the q's so it doesn't work, and in living color!):

[ quote name='southsider2k7' date='Jun 13 2008, 09:41 AM' post='10668']
Its not too hard. [/ quote]

My witty interjection.

[ quote]As you reply, enter in the quote text your self [ quote ], and [ / quote ] except no spaces in between the words.
[/ quote]


becomes this (without the spaces, so it actually works, and in regular color):

QUOTE(southsider2k7 @ Jun 13 2008, 09:41 AM) *

Its not too hard.


My witty interjection.

QUOTE
As you reply, enter in the quote text your self [ quote ], and [ / quote ] except no spaces in between the words.


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JHeath
post Jul 8 2008, 09:08 AM
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http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=40359.68
QUOTE
7/8/2008 11:00:00 AM
'Long-Term Study' Says Open Franklin Street
As a resident of Michigan City since 1942, I personally have done a study of the Franklin Street issue. The study results are that Franklin Street needs to be two-way and go all the way to the monument. All plans for the lakefront will not work unless you follow this study.

Feel free to send me a check for thousands of dollars for my study.

David Breitzka

Michigan City

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Roger Kaputnik
post Jul 8 2008, 09:51 AM
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Ha ha ha!


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Southsider2k12
post Jul 23 2008, 12:47 PM
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http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=53317.08

QUOTE
Redevelopment Painfully Slow
Watching the extremely painful progress of development of Michigan City and paying for study after study, one thing is crystal clear - nobody has a clue on what the mission at hand is. Common sense is zero. This politically correct garbage of trying to please everybody is costing us a fortune. For the $500,000 you professionals have spent on studies in the last 14 years we could have moved the library. I didn't say tear it down - move it.

We spent thousands of dollars on the Franklin Street two-way study and now we're on budget constraints? Patriot Park can't get finished and we put on hold the $400,000 splash pad. This circus has to stop because we are going to run out of peanuts to feed the elephants, and there are a lot of elephants in Michigan City politics.

It doesn't matter what we pay the professionals for their opinions. You say it just doesn't fit our wonderful little town. Its either too big or isn't diversified enough for the poor.

There isn't a developer in the country who will ever be able to completely understand Michigan City because it doesn't know what the words "potential" and "opportunity" mean for a community. Billions of dollars pass us by.

The city has spent more on attorney fees than what the Weber Sign company wants for its property. Does that make any sense? It's good old boy at its best.

Build around Blue Chip - there's your free study.

Roger Willoughby

Michigan City
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Southsider2k12
post Sep 9 2008, 12:45 PM
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http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=53065.71

QUOTE
City, Blocksom owners to mediate

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

If agreement isn't hashed out for property price, a trial is slated for Jan. 8.

MICHIGAN CITY - "I believe the end is near," Mike Bergerson, attorney for the Michigan City Redevelopment Commission, told commissioners Monday.

He was talking about an end to legal wrangling between the city and the owners of Trail Creek property at the corner of Michigan Boulevard and Eighth Street. The city wants to obtain the property through eminent domain while the owners have said the city should purchase the property at current market values.

Bergerson said both sides will meet with a mediator on Sept. 22 to resolve differences. If an agreement isn't reached, an Oct. 9 hearing date has been set, at which time an appraiser would be appointed, Bergerson said.

"Ultimately, if the parties can't come to a resolution through mediation or other discussion, the court has set a trial on Jan. 8," he said.

Bergerson told commissioners that negotiations are proceeding for the property purchase and relocation of Blocksom, now located on Trail Creek property targeted for redevelopment. He said an Oct. 6 negotiation session could be the last one.

In other business, John Pugh, director of city planning, said results of a market analysis of the Lohan Anderson plan for the city's North End and Trail Creek corridor will be presented at the Oct. 6 Redevelopment Commission meeting. Tracy Cross, a national residential market analysis firm in Schaumburg, Ill., was selected to conduct the analysis.



Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.

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Southsider2k12
post Oct 20 2008, 11:13 AM
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http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=47680.47

QUOTE
Judge: Appraise Weber, Icehouse sites
Owners alleged city did not make good-faith effort to purchase properties.

By Laurie Wink

The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - A judge has ordered owners of the Weber Sign Service and Icehouse properties to select an appraiser to determine the value of properties at the corner of Michigan Boulevard and Eighth Street.

It's a win for the city, which has been trying to acquire those properties to begin development of the Trail Creek Corridor and had resorted to eminent domain to acquire them. The owners had challenged that in court.

Lake County Superior Court Judge Calvin Hawkins ordered both the property owners and the city to select their own appraisers by Oct. 27. The two appraisers will select a third appraiser and the three will agree on the property's value and submit it to the court by Nov. 2.

A trial date has been scheduled for Jan. 8, 2009, for any party to object to the appraisers' report.

Michael Bergerson, attorney for the Michigan City Redevelopment Commission, said the court decision affirmed actions taken by the commission to obtain the properties.

"It's a big step forward," Bergerson said. "The people in that area should be excited."

He said getting the deed to the properties will allow the city to move forward with property clean-up and the Lafayette/Barker storm sewer project, relieving the threat of flooding for hundreds of homeowners in that area.

Weber Sign Service owners William and Kathy Weber and Icehouse property owners Thomas and Florence Sobkowiak filed the suit in Lake Superior Court. They alleged the Michigan City Redevelopment Commission hadn't made a good faith effort to purchase the properties, and failed to provide them with appraisals.

Hawkins rejected those allegations, and his ruling allows the Redevelopment Commission to proceed with clean-up and to recover cleanup costs from the property owners. Those expenses have been estimated to exceed $1 million, according to Bergerson.

"The acquisition of these properties will result in the cleanup of environmentally contaminated properties which drain into Trail Creek," Bergerson said, "and eventual redevelopment consistent with the Lohan Anderson and St. Andrews University reuse studies."

Initial offers were made to the property owners in 2002, along with an offer to the Webers for an equivalent business site. During the past six years, the Redevelopment Commission has acquired some 15 parcels in the designated redevelopment area.

"It's been extremely frustrating when one side doesn't want to be open to any other negotiation," Bergerson said. "The court certainly affirmed the efforts of the Redevelopment Commission in taking a reasoned and thoughtful approach toward acquiring these properties."

Kathy Weber referred questions about the lawsuit to the Weber's attorney Glenn Kuchel, who did not respond.



Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.
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