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> South Shore plans $65 million project
Dave
post Aug 3 2009, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE(joe.black @ Aug 3 2009, 08:21 PM) *

If anyone wants a quick once-over of what NICTD management is thinking, feel free to read the interview "stickied" to the first page of this web site.


And here's a link to that thread:

http://www.citybythelake.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2300

Joe, if the new pathway for the NICTD rails is going to be where it's shown in the proposal, why does anything have to be done with 11th street? It appears to my untrained eye that the tracks would no longer be in the street, so why not leave the street alone (other than removing the tracks)?

Alternatively, if NICTD has the entire width of 11th street to use for a rail bed, why would it be necessary to tear down all those houses, other than to straighten out a couple of curves? It seems to me that the "rails in asphalt" issue would be taken care of.

As for a new station, is there a compelling reason to not use the old station? And as to having adequate parking, is there a compelling reason why a huge street level parking lot is superior to a multi-level structure (such as those seen in the Andrews and other studies)? I understand there may be additional cost, but unless the additional cost is astronomical, I personally don't find that reason compelling.

And one more question, regarding the additional cost of rails in asphalt-- how many years of the extra expense of the rails in asphalt would $65 million pay for?

And on a personal note, are you still affliated with NICTD? I thought I heard you had moved on to another employment situation. If you're still in Michigan City, I owe you a poster...
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joe.black
post Aug 4 2009, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 3 2009, 07:53 PM) *

And here's a link to that thread:

http://www.citybythelake.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2300

Joe, if the new pathway for the NICTD rails is going to be where it's shown in the proposal, why does anything have to be done with 11th street? It appears to my untrained eye that the tracks would no longer be in the street, so why not leave the street alone (other than removing the tracks)?

Alternatively, if NICTD has the entire width of 11th street to use for a rail bed, why would it be necessary to tear down all those houses, other than to straighten out a couple of curves? It seems to me that the "rails in asphalt" issue would be taken care of.


The plan, as far as it had gotten before I left (which was a painful decision for me, but necessary as the relocation just didn't work out) was to leave a lane of 11th Street open (the north lane). In order to get the necessary real estate (figuratively speaking) to fit 2 trackways plus ancillary infrastructure such as catenary structures, signals and signal huts, and so forth, it was calculated that the south lane, sidewalk, and one lot into 11th Street, on the south side, would be necessary (not the entire lot, but it's impossible to buy some fraction of a lot, if your ultimate goal is to build something else entirely on it, for obvious reasons). If 11th Street were to simply be closed completely, I'm not sure that that would provide enough space or not (I don't have the necessary street dimension data in front of me), but I suspect that it would be. However - the plan, which the city seemed to want, was to keep one lane of 11th Street open. That's what has led us to this place.

QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 3 2009, 07:53 PM) *
As for a new station, is there a compelling reason to not use the old station? And as to having adequate parking, is there a compelling reason why a huge street level parking lot is superior to a multi-level structure (such as those seen in the Andrews and other studies)? I understand there may be additional cost, but unless the additional cost is astronomical, I personally don't find that reason compelling.


NICTD no longer owns the old station, which I understand has been virtually gutted on the inside. Also, north of 11th Street is the historic district, making any substantial work there more costly, more involved, and more trouble, plain and simple. It would not be cost effective on a dollar or time basis to try to design and build something with all of the modern amenities that NICTD envisions without making substantial changes, which run right up against something you're familiar with - the historic district.

As for the parking - NICTD would, if the 11th Street corridor is built, close the station at Carroll Avenue. The District would very much like to be able to provide passengers with the parking they need right now, and will likely need in the future. Although demand is off slightly this year mostly due to the economic downturn, the long term trend is solidly up. That's why it was projected that so much land would be needed for parking. I don't think that anything in the NICTD plan, though, necessarily precludes a multi-level parking structure (in fact, the economic development folks thought that would be a good idea). You're right that it would be more costly, but I don't know what the incremental cost of that would be versus a flat parking lot.

QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 3 2009, 07:53 PM) *
And one more question, regarding the additional cost of rails in asphalt-- how many years of the extra expense of the rails in asphalt would $65 million pay for?


Unfortunately, I don't have the "broken out" figures in front of me that show mile for mile where the most expensive to maintain segments are, and what the per-mile costs are, but the street running section by far outpaces any other segmentin terms of maintenance cost. In addition - and you had alluded to this in an earlier post - the cost of not implementing Positive Train Control (PTC) by 2015 could be as serious as an embargo of service. The Feds could, conceivably, shut the South Shore down through the FRA if it's not in compliance. I doubt they'd take that drastic step, but everything up to and including complete shutdown is in their arsenal. Since the state of the rails is never good in the asphalt, it's very difficult to install and maintain a working PTC system in street running track of the kind that runs down 11th & 10th Streets.


QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 3 2009, 07:53 PM) *
And on a personal note, are you still affliated with NICTD? I thought I heard you had moved on to another employment situation. If you're still in Michigan City, I owe you a poster...


As I've already said, I had to make the very painful decision to leave NICTD and the area, which I had grown to love. There may be a time in the future when my family situation and the economic situation will have changed such that I could return, but that would be at NICTD's pleasure, obviously.
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Southsider2k12
post Aug 6 2009, 05:35 PM
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http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=70457.81

QUOTE
Residents need timeline on South Shore relocation
I attended the South Shore workshop. I am a homeowner of a home to be purchased. I was hoping for information regarding a timeline of purchases of our homes. Will it be months or years or weeks? If it is months or weeks we homeowners need to begin looking for new homes.

While I am willing to sell my home I would like to have time to look for a replacement and would like to know the timeline in case I find a home I'd like to bid on. The meeting answered no questions for us. We did write down our questions and were told they'd be answered at the next meeting. They gave no idea when that will be. We did hear that the plans had to be submitted in 2010, had to be completed by 2015 and it was a five- to six-year project. I have also heard the first federal money will be given in September of this year.

This makes me believe it will be months rather than years.

So come on NITCD, give me a timeline. How long do I have? What kind of offer are you going to make on our homes? Do you have to follow the Federal Uniform Relocation Act guidelines? When will the next meeting be and will it actually give us information? Or will it just be to placate those who have complaints?

I have no problem with the acquisition of my house, just would like to know when you will be making your offer!

Carolyn Pryor

Michigan City
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IndyTransplant
post Aug 6 2009, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE(southsider2k9 @ Aug 6 2009, 06:35 PM) *




I had heard through the grapevine of at least one person who had already sold their home or at least come to an agreement. I cannot say for sure if if it is true, but thought I would mention it.



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Southsider2k12
post Aug 7 2009, 10:22 PM
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Economic Impact of the South Shore on Downtown Michigan City
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IndyTransplant
post Aug 7 2009, 10:42 PM
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Thanks for posting that Southsider. Gave it a quick read and will go over more carefullly over the weekend. Will admit that there is personal interest in the plans since we will be living closer to downtown very soon.


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Southsider2k12
post Aug 13 2009, 11:50 AM
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http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...ArticleID=25136

QUOTE
NICTD says no to north route idea
Concept proposed by group of concerned citizens.

Dave Hawk and Laurie Wink
Staff Writers

MICHIGAN CITY - The agency that runs the South Shore commuter service is not considering the northerly route proposed by a group of concerned citizens, a spokesman said Wednesday.

The plans for a northerly route call for an elevated station and a new bridge extending over Trail Creek and Franklin Street on a route that would serve both the South Shore and Amtrak. It would be accomplished in conjunction with replacing an existing swing bridge over the creek used by Amtrak.

The costs of such a project would be too high, said John Parsons, Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District planning and marketing manager. He has been quoted as saying the northerly route would cost $200 million, compared with an estimated $65 million for rebuilding the route along the 11th and 10th streets corridor where it now travels.

"What we're talking about (with the northern route) is a bridge and a station to be constructed above grade," Parsons said. "Bridges increase long-term maintenance and capital costs, and so do elevated stations because of the mere fact of requiring elevators and escalators."

Also, working on tracks adjacent to Amtrak would pose "a series of operational issues," Parsons said.

Meanwhile, the concerned citizens group hopes to enlist the help of Indiana's U.S. senators, Richard Lugar and Evan Bayh, and the local congressman, U.S. Rep. Joe Donnelly, to see if they can urge Amtrak to work with NICTD so the two passenger services can share the same corridor through the north end of Michigan City.

Group member Fred Miller said while the north route is more costly, its costs should be looked at over the decades that a new track would be used, and that federal economic stimulus money may be available in the near future for upgrading the local Amtrak route to a high-speed rail line, necessitating replacement of the bridge over Trail Creek.

Those advocating the north route say it would generate greater redevelopment of the North End than keeping the South Shore along 11th and 10th streets, and that tearing down some 150 houses and a few businesses as proposed by NICTD would reduce the city's tax base by more than $8 million in assessed valuation, costing the city property tax revenue.

Moreover, they say that closing most cross streets, as the NICTD plan proposes, would divide Michigan City with an ugly chain link fence.

NICTD, however, has furnished pictures showing the new South Shore track, built along the south side of 11th and 10th streets, would look like the landscaped areas along the North Shore Metra line in the north Chicago suburbs.

The proposed South Shore rail realignment on 11th and 10th streets is subject of a pending agreement between the city and NICTD.

Mayor Chuck Oberlie said the memorandum of understanding will not be developed until consultant Stu Sirota, of TND Planning Group in Baltimore, gives a report on issues raised July 29 at a public meeting. The approximately 150 attendees broke into smaller groups to address specific aspects of a proposed relocation of South Shore tracks and submitted group reports.

"The consultants are preparing a report that will address questions that were brought forward," Oberlie said. "Once the report is complete, another public discussion will take place."

Following that, the City Council will address the memorandum of understanding, the mayor said.

City Council President Bob McKee, D-At-large, said Wednesday he does not know when the memorandum will be passed to the council for consideration. At that point, McKee said, the matter may be referred to a council committee for review before coming to the full council as a resolution.

"I don't think this is going to drag out until January or February," McKee said, "but I think some of these questions need to be answered."

A big unanswered question for McKee is what the city's share of the cost would be.

"Is our share going to be $100,000 or $5 million? The costs I've heard are all over the board," McKee said.

"In my mind, we have two routes to chose from. I can see positives and negatives on both sides of this."

Parsons said cooperation from the city is needed to move forward with the project. A memorandum of understanding with the city would help secure federal grant funding for a preliminary engineering design and then an environmental impact study. Public hearings would be held in Michigan City during the environmental impact phase of the project, Parsons said.

"We would like the cooperation of the city," Parsons said. "We certainly hope we will get it."

NICTD needs to remove the track from the center of the roadway on 11th and 10th street to solve operating problems, in the most cost-effective way, Parsons said. With a revitalized South Shore line along 10th and 11th streets, he added, "Michigan City has a unique opportunity to further develop the lakefront with an Amtrak corridor development and with our project."

Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.
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Southsider2k12
post Aug 15 2009, 07:57 AM
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http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...&TM=35807.4

QUOTE
Where's outrage over South Shore plan?
It's interesting that NICTD needs to give The News-Dispatch a picture of a train station and fencing belonging to the North Shore Metra Line north of Chicago. The other pictures they show during their presentation are from other U.S. cities and Europe.

NICTD has stations and fencing in several Indiana communities and the results are nothing like what they show during their presentations. The fences throughout Gary, Hammond and East Chicago are in disrepair, rusty, falling down, and full of weeds and trash.

If NICTD doesn't take care of what they are presently responsible for, why should Michigan City expect anything different? During Mr. Parsons' presentation he stated they would be reducing grade crossings throughout Michigan City from the present 34 to 17. The North End route has elevated crossings and the total number of grade crossings would be reduced to two. Where's the outrage from our citizens?

Not only will over 150 residences and businesses be displaced, but neighborhoods will be destroyed. Seven cross streets in a row going from Michigan Boulevard to Pine Street will be closed. Kids that live on the south side of 11th Street won't be able to walk across and play with friends on the north side. Kids on the north side of 11th Street won't be able to walk to Elston Middle School. On the west end of 11th Street many people who walk to St. Mary's Church and School as well as Marquette High School won't be able to get there because of the fences.

How about school buses and emergency vehicles? I could go on and on, but those who live in the neighborhoods know better than I how they will be affected.

If any neighborhood organizations, churches or service groups want to see our power point presentation concerning this subject or need help having their voice heard, please contact me at 879-7997.

Leigh Coburn

Michigan City
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Dave
post Aug 15 2009, 04:27 PM
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My question for the North End Routers is pretty simple -- where's the $200 million (that's the low estimate, more likely $450 million or more) to pay for the elevated bridge and approaches supposed to come from? Until they have a credible answer to that question, anything they say is just noise.
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Southsider2k12
post Aug 17 2009, 10:43 PM
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http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=2546.382

QUOTE
Northern route would block lake view
So much has been said and written in support of the "benefits" of moving the South Shore to the Amtrak route north of U.S. 12 that I was worried that NICTD might actually succumb to the pressure of people who have never spent any time sitting on the patio on the north side of Swingbelly's and contemplating the effect of a railroad embankment that, at that point, would be at least as high as their roof.

We have already cut downtown Michigan City off from the lake with a library. Do we really want to contemplate a further separation? I would think that we'd want to do things that pull the lake and the city closer rather than adding yet another obstacle.

Thank you, NICTD. Hang in there. Sanity will eventually prevail.

Sam Harnish

Michigan City

q

Editor's note: The group pushing for relocating the South Shore contends it could be built on an attractive elevated structure. Images of that proposal are at www.michigancitysnewnorthend.com
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mcstumper
post Aug 18 2009, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE(southsider2k9 @ Aug 17 2009, 11:43 PM) *

Northern route would block lake view
So much has been said and written in support of the "benefits" of moving the South Shore to the Amtrak route north of U.S. 12 that I was worried that NICTD might actually succumb to the pressure of people who have never spent any time sitting on the patio on the north side of Swingbelly's and contemplating the effect of a railroad embankment that, at that point, would be at least as high as their roof.

We have already cut downtown Michigan City off from the lake with a library. Do we really want to contemplate a further separation? I would think that we'd want to do things that pull the lake and the city closer rather than adding yet another obstacle.

Thank you, NICTD. Hang in there. Sanity will eventually prevail.

Sam Harnish

Michigan City

q

Editor's note: The group pushing for relocating the South Shore contends it could be built on an attractive elevated structure. Images of that proposal are at www.michigancitysnewnorthend.com


This guy is right on. A great political cartoon would show Joie Winski's crowd finally tearing down the library then turning around to admire the new view of Washington Park and the lake front; only to see this monstrosity in the way.

Its a commuter line. Sticking the station on the north end puts it farther away for the average MC citizen. And to think that in these peoples' minds, after all the work that has gone into clearing blight along Trail Creek, the best use for the most prime real estate in the city would be commuter parking lots.

As for the dual purpose rail station (South Shore & Amtrak), this ignores the fact that the Amtrak line between Porter, IN and New Buffalo, MI is redundant and represents nothing more that federal government waste. Think about this: Amtrak runs two different daily trains through Michigan City. One on its own line on the north end, and another on the CSX line that runs by Ames Field. These lines intersect in Porter and again in New Buffalo. If Amtrak and CSX would build a connecting track at their intersection in New Buffalo, 23 miles of unnecessary track, countless crossings, overpasses and a floating bridge could be eliminated. Amtrak is plum broke, but insists on paying for the maintenance on this track. Rip it out and rebuild the South Shore freight line across the old Peanut Bridge to connect to Criterion Catalysts for freight. Turn the Amtrak right of way into a 23 mile rail trail. Lets think rationally and economically about these issues and growth will follow.


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JHeath
post Aug 18 2009, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE(mcstumper @ Aug 18 2009, 10:17 PM) *

This guy is right on. A great political cartoon would show Joie Winski's crowd finally tearing down the library then turning around to admire the new view of Washington Park and the lake front; only to see this monstrosity in the way.

Its a commuter line. Sticking the station on the north end puts it farther away for the average MC citizen. And to think that in these peoples' minds, after all the work that has gone into clearing blight along Trail Creek, the best use for the most prime real estate in the city would be commuter parking lots.

As for the dual purpose rail station (South Shore & Amtrak), this ignores the fact that the Amtrak line between Porter, IN and New Buffalo, MI is redundant and represents nothing more that federal government waste. Think about this: Amtrak runs two different daily trains through Michigan City. One on its own line on the north end, and another on the CSX line that runs by Ames Field. These lines intersect in Porter and again in New Buffalo. If Amtrak and CSX would build a connecting track at their intersection in New Buffalo, 23 miles of unnecessary track, countless crossings, overpasses and a floating bridge could be eliminated. Amtrak is plum broke, but insists on paying for the maintenance on this track. Rip it out and rebuild the South Shore freight line across the old Peanut Bridge to connect to Criterion Catalysts for freight. Turn the Amtrak right of way into a 23 mile rail trail. Lets think rationally and economically about these issues and growth will follow.

I can tell you that Joie would not support moving the tracks further north, nor would she support what you deem "a monstrosity of a station." But, that's neither here nor there. She's not the one in office.
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mcstumper
post Aug 19 2009, 10:25 AM
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QUOTE(JHeath @ Aug 18 2009, 11:59 PM) *

I can tell you that Joie would not support moving the tracks further north, nor would she support what you deem "a monstrosity of a station." But, that's neither here nor there. She's not the one in office.


Sorry. I didn't mean to lump her in with the North End Relocationists... just as someone active in the movement to relocate the library and open Franklin St.


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Dave
post Aug 19 2009, 01:05 PM
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Fred Miller (from www.michigancitysnewnorthend.com) is going to give a powerpoint presentation of their plan at the Elston Grove Neighborhood Association meeting tonight at the IBEW Center (old Central School) at 7 p.m.

Non-members are welcome to attend.

I'm going to be there, and I anticipate asking a few questions myself.

This post has been edited by Dave: Aug 19 2009, 01:06 PM
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Southsider2k12
post Aug 20 2009, 08:07 AM
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http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...ArticleID=25248

QUOTE
Answers to S. Shore questions expected soon

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Questions about the South Shore realignment posed during a public workshop July 29 are expected to be answered by the end of the month.

Councilman Rich Murphy, D-1st Ward, told City Council members Tuesday a final report will be submitted at the end of August by Stu Sirota, of TND Planning Group. Sirota is categorizing the questions and forwarding them to the appropriate entities for answers, Murphy said, adding that some questions might not have answers right now.

The city and the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District partnered to bring Sirota in as the workshop facilitator. He has worked with the city on planning issues for two years, including the North End plan created by architectural students from Andrews University in 2007.

Some 150 local residents attended the public workshop, breaking into smaller groups to consider topics such as street closures, landscaping, railroad operations and right-of-way issues.

Council President Bob McKee, D-at-Large, presented a list at Tuesday's council meeting of questions he would like answered:

• What is the hard money cost to the city?

• What is the soft money cost (paving streets, working on sewer systems) and who pays it?

• Will the city be compensated for property taxes lost when parcels are purchased by NICTD?

• What type of station is proposed and who will pay for it?

• What landscaping and streetscaping is planned and who will provide it?

• Will there by guarantees on construction and continued maintenance so eyesores don't develop?

• Is a northern route conceivable in terms of NICTD's business plan?

McKee provided the list to Murphy, who said he would forward the questions to Sirota.

In other business, the council voted 9-0 to appoint Shandra Niswander to the Michigan City Animal Control Advisory Committee. Her term begins immediately and expires Jan. 1, 2012.

Representatives of the La Porte County Convention & Visitors Bureau presented a plaque from Superboat International to Mayor Chuck Oberlie in recognition of the city's support for the Aug. 7-9 Great Lakes Grand Prix event. CVB Sports Manager Jason Miller said all the participating drivers had "glowing reviews" of their treatment here.
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joe.black
post Aug 20 2009, 11:30 AM
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Critical questions to be answered by the north end folks include:

How are you going to get the Coast Guard to waive the bridge height requirement?

If they do waive it (allowing an essentially flat crossing of the creek), how does that affect the ability of boats to use that section of Trail Creek?

Is the north end route proposing to place NICTD's trains on Amtrak rails, under the control of Amtrak dispatchers?

If not, have they included the cost of separate tracks and facilities in the projected cost of the north end route? Also - will the new station have separate platforms for eastbound and westbound Amtrak and South Shore trains (in other words, 4 platform tracks)? If not, how do you propose to separate NICTD traffic from Amtrak?

How do they answer the assertion that an elevated railway will be a visual fence across the lakeshore, and diminish rather than enhance the city's connection to the lake?

Where is the extra funding for the north end route coming from? Don't say "stimulus" - that's a buzzword, and meaningless at this point. There's nothing about the north end route that is "shovel ready".
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Dave
post Aug 20 2009, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE(joe.black @ Aug 20 2009, 12:30 PM) *

Critical questions to be answered by the north end folks include:


From what I gathered at the meeting last night (note: I am not an advocate of the "north end plan"):

QUOTE
How are you going to get the Coast Guard to waive the bridge height requirement?

If they do waive it (allowing an essentially flat crossing of the creek), how does that affect the ability of boats to use that section of Trail Creek?


It was said that current regulations require clearance above water level to be 45 feet, but it could possibly be negotiated down to 25 feet. My thought: so much for sailboats docking in Trail Creek -- most masts aren't going to fit under a 25 foot clearance.

QUOTE
Is the north end route proposing to place NICTD's trains on Amtrak rails, under the control of Amtrak dispatchers?

If not, have they included the cost of separate tracks and facilities in the projected cost of the north end route? Also - will the new station have separate platforms for eastbound and westbound Amtrak and South Shore trains (in other words, 4 platform tracks)? If not, how do you propose to separate NICTD traffic from Amtrak?


Their plans appeared to me to have a single platform at the station with tracks on either side, the northern set of tracks for Amtrak and the southern set of tracks for the South Shore. From a conversation I had with you, Joe, I understand that running freight trains next to a platform is a problem, but I didn't have the opportunity to ask them about it. Anyway, one set of rails for Amtrak and one set of rails for NICTD on the elevated section.

QUOTE
How do they answer the assertion that an elevated railway will be a visual fence across the lakeshore, and diminish rather than enhance the city's connection to the lake?


They had a pretty picture of their proposed station, with all sorts of pretty design elements. They even had an artist's conception of what the view from the station, which they suggest would be just west of Swingbelly's (the old Amtrak station). The artist's conception shows a view of the Chicago skyline. That view looks to me like what one might see from the beach -- through a telescope. My guess is that a view from the proposed location is going to primarily be the backside of the NIPSCO power plant, which I suspect doesn't fascinate many artists.

QUOTE
Where is the extra funding for the north end route coming from? Don't say "stimulus" - that's a buzzword, and meaningless at this point. There's nothing about the north end route that is "shovel ready".


My questions last night were about cost and funding. Mr. Miller answered that the bridge over Trail Creek was estimated at $200 million, and when I pressed him on that, that was just for the bridge -- with the approaches, the new station, and the rest, the cost would go up to at $250 million or $300 million or more (close to $10,000 per person living in Michigan City.)

The answer to my question as to where the money would come from? What many on the internet would refer to as "hand waving." Federal funds, NITCD, Amtrak, bond issues for $50 million paid for by Blue Chip riverboat money over 10 or 15 years (errr, aren't those funds shrinking due to lower revenues at the casino? Not to mention casino revenue may not be high enough to pay that off -- do we get more than $7 million per year from the riverboat (to cover principal and interest on those bonds)?), bonds paid for with TIF funds (I almost laughed out loud at this -- we at the Elston Grove Neighborhood Association have been waiting a couple of years to get decorative streetlights in the neighborhood which would cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Good luck getting the millions for a bond issue!)


Years ago I remember seeing some grandiose plans proposed during the 1920's for the Chicago lakefront, including airports built on floating islands out in Lake Michigan. My reaction was "Gee, that looks cool! Would cost so much it would never happen, but sure looks cool!" My impression of the north end proponents is that they came up with the idea that "gee, that looks cool!" but didn't get to the "Going to cost so much that's never going to happen" part.

I've previously stated that I think the NICTD proposal is their Christmas list of everything they could conceivably want, but that a lesser version would be something they would accept -- the current proposal is simply where they want to start negotiating from. If Michigan City essentially gives NICTD 11th street and reduces the number of grade crossings, and tell them they have to landscape the corridor and maintain it without putting up fences that aren't there now and we've managed without for a hundred years, NICTD won't be concerned about knocking down 150 or so houses, because they'll get their tracks out of the asphalt.

One of the reasons that I can't take the north enders too seriously is that they were talking about getting politicians on board, and suggested getting Senator Lugar involved. Why they figured the Republican senator from Indiana would be enthusiastic to propose spending upwards of $300 million in federal funds in the most solidly Democratic section of the state instead of , oh, say, Senator Bayh, the Democratic Indiana senator, in my opinion shows how well connected to reality they are.
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post Aug 21 2009, 08:55 AM
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QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 20 2009, 01:24 PM) *

Their plans appeared to me to have a single platform at the station with tracks on either side, the northern set of tracks for Amtrak and the southern set of tracks for the South Shore. From a conversation I had with you, Joe, I understand that running freight trains next to a platform is a problem, but I didn't have the opportunity to ask them about it. Anyway, one set of rails for Amtrak and one set of rails for NICTD on the elevated section.


There are definitely issues with running freight trains next to a high level station platform. At NICTD's current high level stations, there are two sets of tracks - a main track that the freights use that allows their greater width to clear the platform edges, and a "gauntlet track", or station track that tucks in closer to allow the passenger cars to snug up to the edge. That would be required (but, then again, it would be required at an 11th Street Station with high-level platforms as well).

My bigger concern is that this pretty much locks NICTD into a single track railroad through Michigan City. If the north end proponents are suggesting a separate track for NICTD and a separate track for Amtrak, what do you think the cost would be at some point in the near future to construct a new extension to the bridge and reconfigure station platforms to accomodate a second NICTD track? It would be fairly costly, to be very understated.

The only other way to do it is to build a second track and allow Amtrak and NICTD to operate over them in opposite directions...which means Amtrak would control it.

QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 20 2009, 01:24 PM) *
They had a pretty picture of their proposed station, with all sorts of pretty design elements. They even had an artist's conception of what the view from the station, which they suggest would be just west of Swingbelly's (the old Amtrak station). The artist's conception shows a view of the Chicago skyline. That view looks to me like what one might see from the beach -- through a telescope. My guess is that a view from the proposed location is going to primarily be the backside of the NIPSCO power plant, which I suspect doesn't fascinate many artists.
My questions last night were about cost and funding. Mr. Miller answered that the bridge over Trail Creek was estimated at $200 million, and when I pressed him on that, that was just for the bridge -- with the approaches, the new station, and the rest, the cost would go up to at $250 million or $300 million or more (close to $10,000 per person living in Michigan City.)


Add in the additional incremental cost of double tracking the NICTD alignment on the north end (with all of the ancillary 'stuff' that a water crossing requires) versus double tracking an 11th Street alignment that is specifically sized to one day allow a second track, and the cost goes up even more...

QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 20 2009, 01:24 PM) *
The answer to my question as to where the money would come from? What many on the internet would refer to as "hand waving." Federal funds, NITCD, Amtrak, bond issues for $50 million paid for by Blue Chip riverboat money over 10 or 15 years (errr, aren't those funds shrinking due to lower revenues at the casino? Not to mention casino revenue may not be high enough to pay that off -- do we get more than $7 million per year from the riverboat (to cover principal and interest on those bonds)?), bonds paid for with TIF funds (I almost laughed out loud at this -- we at the Elston Grove Neighborhood Association have been waiting a couple of years to get decorative streetlights in the neighborhood which would cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Good luck getting the millions for a bond issue!)


I've seen this before. "We're here at A, then we go to B, then *something happens*, and we get to D". The "something happens" part is the one that is the hardest to answer. They apparently weren't very convincing.

Thanks for the recap, Dave.
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post Aug 21 2009, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE(joe.black @ Aug 21 2009, 09:55 AM) *


QUOTE
The answer to my question as to where the money would come from? What many on the internet would refer to as "hand waving." Federal funds, NITCD, Amtrak, bond issues for $50 million paid for by Blue Chip riverboat money over 10 or 15 years (errr, aren't those funds shrinking due to lower revenues at the casino? Not to mention casino revenue may not be high enough to pay that off -- do we get more than $7 million per year from the riverboat (to cover principal and interest on those bonds)?), bonds paid for with TIF funds (I almost laughed out loud at this -- we at the Elston Grove Neighborhood Association have been waiting a couple of years to get decorative streetlights in the neighborhood which would cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Good luck getting the millions for a bond issue!)


I've seen this before. "We're here at A, then we go to B, then *something happens*, and we get to D". The "something happens" part is the one that is the hardest to answer. They apparently weren't very convincing.

Thanks for the recap, Dave.


Thanks for your views on this stuff, Joe.

And to elaborate for the other folks reading this, when I related above to the funding sources the north enders anticipate getting money from, to my untrained ears it didn't sound so much like a careful and well thought out funding strategy as it sounded simply like wishful thinking.

I'm sure that at least some of the people involved with the north end proposal are very sincere, and I know that some of them have been working on this thing for years. I just don't think that plan is workable, cost effective, or necessarily desirable. As I told one of the gentlemen after the Elston Grove meeting, if I was given $300 million to do something to improve Michigan City, it wouldn't involve moving the South Shore tracks from where they've been for the past 100 years, it would involve the purchase and demolition of the lakefront NIPSCO power plant and its replacement with a bunch of lakefront residences.



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post Aug 22 2009, 08:43 PM
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Good call Dave on NIPSCO.

I also don't see the need to increase the cost of this project by a factor of 4-5 times. In this era of recession, it also isn't realistic.
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