[Southsider2k12]

The fam and I just made a trip out there, and boy has the economy taken a toll on the place. I didn't know that they were now opening daily at 11am. I tried going out there to buy some stuff to work on the lawnmower at 10:05, it was closed, and instead went and bought what I need at Lowes instead ( I didn't know if True Value would be open either, and had the kids, didn't want to waste the extra time if it might not be open).

We went back this afternoon to look for another part, and saw that they are now only open until 8pm. I also notice that they have completely closed down the wing of the mall on the West end of Sears (a long time ago it was where True Value used to be). Not to mention that many of the few stores that are still open, are only stocking a fraction of their former inventory. It used to be hard to move our double stroller through many places, now it was easy.

The water fountian/wishing well is closed down, and even boarded up.

The Visitors Center is only open from 8:30 am to 4:30 during the week, so I couldn't even check it out.

Finally the Shop, Score, and Win program that used to send money to many schools in town seems to be over, because all of the slots where you used to put your receipts for a specific school are now boarded over as well.

I really have to think that the Mall is worth more closed than open. That is prime real estate, and some where has to want that. Imagine bulldozing that area and adding a Target/Kohls type complex? What is there now is pretty much pointless. I can't see myself going back there unless I know something specific I need is there. There is no point in going their to browse anymore.

[Tom Burns]

The fam and I just made a trip out there, and boy has the economy taken a toll on the place. I didn't know that they were now opening daily at 11am. I tried going out there to buy some stuff to work on the lawnmower at 10:05, it was closed, and instead went and bought what I need at Lowes instead ( I didn't know if True Value would be open either, and had the kids, didn't want to waste the extra time if it might not be open).

We went back this afternoon to look for another part, and saw that they are now only open until 8pm. I also notice that they have completely closed down the wing of the mall on the West end of Sears (a long time ago it was where True Value used to be). Not to mention that many of the few stores that are still open, are only stocking a fraction of their former inventory. It used to be hard to move our double stroller through many places, now it was easy.

The water fountian/wishing well is closed down, and even boarded up.

The Visitors Center is only open from 8:30 am to 4:30 during the week, so I couldn't even check it out.

Finally the Shop, Score, and Win program that used to send money to many schools in town seems to be over, because all of the slots where you used to put your receipts for a specific school are now boarded over as well.

I really have to think that the Mall is worth more closed than open. That is prime real estate, and some where has to want that. Imagine bulldozing that area and adding a Target/Kohls type complex? What is there now is pretty much pointless. I can't see myself going back there unless I know something specific I need is there. There is no point in going their to browse anymore.

There is a report in this morning's Wall Street Journal on the plight of enclosed malls.

[IndyTransplant]

I really have to think that the Mall is worth more closed than open. That is prime real estate, and some where has to want that. Imagine bulldozing that area and adding a Target/Kohls type complex? What is there now is pretty much pointless. I can't see myself going back there unless I know something specific I need is there. There is no point in going their to browse anymore.

If you think the Mall is worth more closed, take a closer look at the vacant and unsightly and depressing view of the closed Walmart store in the Lakeland strip (which thankfully will soon be revived as a Big R). I do not know how long it has been closed, but I noticed it on my first trip into town well over a year ago and thought how poor and depressing MC looked because of it (at that time I was a visitor).

It is important for a good impresssion and for the local economy to keep the stores open (that still exist) and to establish a marketing policy to attract other businesses. Especially since they are located on the main thruway into MC for out of towners and tourists. That altered my first impression of MC considerably. Fortunately that was not my only trip here and I am now a resident, but that big vacant washed out looking WalMart building has irritated and saddened me since the first time I saw it.

I am not a "browser", so any mall does not hold that appeal for me. I do however shop at Marquette Mall (Sears, Penneys, Carson Pirie) and get my hair cut occasionally at Master Cuts. Selfishly I sincerely hope it does not close. The Applebees appears to do good business. I do not understand the visitors bureau hours at all. They appear to be open largely in the least likely hours for visitors to want to stop for information.

Many small cities and towns facing the vacant mall syndrome regenerated them as "locals" malls - marketing them to attract smaller local businesses and it worked in many places (especially in tourist areas). Some old malls in tourist areas in other towns and cities are filled with locally owned small gift shops, antique and consignment stores, arts and crafts stores, art stores, handcrafted items stores, small specialty local restaurants and local charity stores (and some occasionally still retain a big box store or two as anchor). Then they are marketed to the tourist population as "local charm" and it worked in many places. The visitors bureau location there could actually be a help in marketing that concept.

By the way, the Ace (True Value?) Hardware behind the mall is wonderful. I highly recommend it and sincerely hope that given the current economy they can survive. They actually open fairly early.

If I truly thought that other box stores might make better use of it, I could understand your sentiments. However the old Walmart store remaining vacant for so long is a testament to the fact that it is not likely that Target, Kohls or even KMart would be interested, especially in the current economy.

[Southsider2k12]

I think most of my frustration comes as a person who is only 5 years younger than the mall itself, I grew up with the place as THE place to be in Michigan City retail. As I grew up Franklin Square had already died its effective death, as only a few small stores were hanging on. All of the important places were long gone for my memories. I can walk through the mall looking at all of those boarded up and empty store fronts and remember what stores were there, and having different memories there. Today MM is a sad shell of its former self.

The truth is that chains like Target don't want old store fronts like the old Wal-Mart locale because a part of their profits comes from the depreciation of the stores they build. They don't have that tax deduction on rented store fronts. It is the same reason you never see the biggest chains move into existing store fronts. In order for that corner of the world to ever be anything big again, it needs to be bulldozed, and not sitting 80% empty as another symbol of days gone by in City. It is still prime real estate in town, and I have no doubt it would fetch big money if the option of razing the existing structures was on the table.

I should qualify my statements by saying that nothing is going to happen, nor would happen, in the near future. No one is building anything right now. This is all with an eye on the economy in the future, such as 2012 or later.

[Ang]

In Casper, the mall has a Target as an anchor store.

I too have many many fond memories of Marquette Mall. My first job was at Chess King, and many of my friends also worked at the mall. I remember when it was always full of people, and the stores were full-From Sears all the way down and around past Carson's and to the office building entrance-every spot had a store in it. The Mall was THE place to go, even for adults--it wasn't just a teen hang-out. It would be nice if the mall could regain some of that.

But, I have to go with SSder on this issue. When I was home over Christmas, I wondered if the mall was still open. Aside from just outside Applebee's, the parking lot was completely deserted-ALL THE WAY AROUND!! And this was during regular business hours--at Christmastime. There were a smattering of employee vehicles here and there, but otherwise, the place looked vacant.

[IndyTransplant]

I think most of my frustration comes as a person who is only 5 years younger than the mall itself, I grew up with the place as THE place to be in Michigan City retail. As I grew up Franklin Square had already died its effective death, as only a few small stores were hanging on. All of the important places were long gone for my memories. I can walk through the mall looking at all of those boarded up and empty store fronts and remember what stores were there, and having different memories there. Today MM is a sad shell of its former self.

The truth is that chains like Target don't want old store fronts like the old Wal-Mart locale because a part of their profits comes from the depreciation of the stores they build. They don't have that tax deduction on rented store fronts. It is the same reason you never see the biggest chains move into existing store fronts. In order for that corner of the world to ever be anything big again, it needs to be bulldozed, and not sitting 80% empty as another symbol of days gone by in City. It is still prime real estate in town, and I have no doubt it would fetch big money if the option of razing the existing structures was on the table.

I should qualify my statements by saying that nothing is going to happen, nor would happen, in the near future. No one is building anything right now. This is all with an eye on the economy in the future, such as 2012 or later.

I can only hope that you are correct that we may see better long term economics that soon. I am not an economist. Having read your posts and opinions on the board on many matters, I have come to respect your thoughtfulness, insight and intelligence. I can also understand how your life experiences lead you to your thoughts and comments. We are all shaped by the past...and the present.

My choices and experiences have led me to a slightly different way of thinking. I prefer the mall to remain open (maybe do a little out of the box thinking to make it more viable for now); not entirely vacant and deteriorating (like the old Walmart) in preparation for a potential future (resurgence, razing/building). I would much prefer we try to do what can be done today for today, than to count on a future we cannot accurately predict or that may even exist. (sorry - that sounds a little morbid, doesn't it ?) One thing we can do, within the restrictions of our own economies, is to the best of our abilities support any businesses that exist today and contribute to ideas for best workable uses for now and for the future.

Perhaps we both have good hopes....it's only that mine lean more toward today and yours lean more toward the future. Any ideas for now do not overrule ideas for the future and visa versa. That's a good match anyway.

[HIaloha]

Isn't the rent there very expensive? It's hard to imagine, if so, that small businesses can make much of a go there. sad. I don't know what any alternatives might be to revive it. I know a lot of people use the facility for indoor walking.

[Ang]

My friend had a coffee shop there 5-6 years ago. She was in the old Corndog spot (for those who don't know where that is, it's in the Carson's wing about midway on the right if you're going to Carson's--just down a little ways from the bathrooms). I think she paid something like $1200/month for that little spot.

[IndyTransplant]

Isn't the rent there very expensive? It's hard to imagine, if so, that small businesses can make much of a go there. sad. I don't know what any alternatives might be to revive it. I know a lot of people use the facility for indoor walking.

IMO, the mall owners are going to have to make a choice very soon or go out of business all together. The few stores left will soon have to make other choices if the mall owners do not work on a plan to bring in more stores. Part of what you are willing to pay rent for in a mall is the amount of public traffic (potential business) all of the stores combined bring to you. We worked in a strip mall in Indy and watched as the owner kept charging higher and higher rents and suddenly all of the best tenants moved on. I worked in that strip mall for about 10 years as part of a small Century 21 realty office. We paid $8000 a month rent (plus the cost of renovations for what we wanted it to be). As the rent kept rising, our company bought a building elsewhere and moved on (as did many others). That Indy strip mall owner has been struggling to maintain the right balance and I heard had to eventually lower the rents appreciably plus fix up the parking lots and exteriors or they would only have had a check cashing place left as a tenant. That owner actually waited too long and is still struggling to keep good tenants (due to the loss of good businesses overall and the loss of shopping traffic).
Once a place deteriorates too much, it is hard to get the public back (unless you offer perhaps a different business model) - hence my idea for a "local" mall.

[IndyTransplant]

My friend had a coffee shop there 5-6 years ago. She was in the old Corndog spot (for those who don't know where that is, it's in the Carson's wing about midway on the right if you're going to Carson's--just down a little ways from the bathrooms). I think she paid something like $1200/month for that little spot.

5 - 6 years ago that would have been considered cheap rent in a similar sized Indianapolis mall. I do not know the market rates here for then or now. But even so, the times they are a changing (as the song goes) and survival for commercial or retail space owners is at risk if they do not make some needed changes as the times change. Anyone with a little common sense says you do what you can to fill open spaces. The more spaces rented and doing business, the more shopping traffic and the more satisfied tenants (with the potential for the owners to eventually raise rents a little at a time as more businesses become successful). IMO that is preferable to having your few dissatisfied tenants eventually move on and closing your doors forever. (Now that is a bad business model!)

[Southsider2k12]

There is a report in this morning's Wall Street Journal on the plight of enclosed malls.

FWIW, here is the article

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124294047987244803.html

Recession Turns Malls Into Ghost Towns

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By KRIS HUDSON and VANESSA O'CONNELL

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Malls, those ubiquitous shopping meccas that sprang up in the 1950s, are dwindling in number, with many struggling properties reduced to largely vacant shells.

On the low-income east side of Charlotte, N.C., the 1.1-million-square-foot Eastland Mall recently lost a slew of key tenants, including a Dillard's and, next month, a Sears. Sales per square foot at the venue fell to $210 in 2008 from $288 in 2001.
Death of an American Mall

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[SB124292740935244025]
Andy McMillan for The Wall Street Journal

As the recession alters American spending habits, traditional shopping malls like Eastland Mall are deteriorating at an accelerating pace.

See more photos and interactive graphics

The Metcalf South Shopping Center in Overland Park, Kan., is languishing after plans to redevelop it into an open-air shopping district fizzled. The stretch of shops that connects the two largest tenants -- a Sears and a Macy's -- stands mostly vacant, patrolled by security guards.

With their maze of walkways and fast-food courts, malls have long been an iconic, if sometimes unsightly, presence in the American retail landscape. A few were made famous by their sheer size, others for the range of shopping and social diversions they provided.

But the long recession is helping to empty out the promenades. Some analysts estimate that the number of so-called "dead malls" -- centers debilitated by anemic sales and high vacancy rates -- will swell to more than 100 by the end of this year.

In the 12 months ended March 31, U.S. malls collectively posted a 6.5% decline in tenants' same-store sales, according to Green Street Advisors Inc., a real-estate research firm. The recent slump was led by an average 7.3% sales drop at Simon Property Group Inc., the operator with the largest number of mall locations.

The industry's woes are worsening. Thinning customer traffic, and subsequent hits to tenants' sales and profits, prompted Standard & Poor's Corp. last month to lower the credit ratings of the department-store sector. That knocked Macy's Inc. and J.C. Penney Co. into junk territory and pushed others deeper into junk. Sears Holdings Corp., a cornerstone tenant at many malls, is expected to close 23 stores this month and next.

General Growth Properties, which owns more than 200 U.S. malls, filed for bankruptcy protection April 16, due mainly to its failure to refinance billions of dollars of debt coming due. While the real-estate investment trust has said the filing will have no impact on its mall business, analysts say a prolonged bankruptcy proceeding could make retailers nervous about sticking around once their leases expire.

The severity of the recession is turning some malls that were once viewed as viable into potential casualties. "Any mall that's sitting on life support is probably going to get its plug pulled" as the economy stalls, says Michael Glimcher, chairman and CEO of Glimcher Realty Trust, which owns 23 U.S. properties, including Eastland Mall in Charlotte.
[deadmall]

See 84 malls in danger of closing.
How the U.S. Got Malled

View Interactive

Look back at the American mall's rise to prominence and recent woes.

One industry rule of thumb holds that any large, enclosed mall generating sales per square foot of $250 or less -- the U.S. average is $381 -- is in danger of failure. By that measure, Eastland is one of 84 dead malls in a 1,032-mall database compiled by Green Street. (The database focuses heavily on malls owned by publicly traded landlords and doesn't account for several dozen failing malls in private hands.) If retail sales continue to decline at current rates, the dead-mall roster could exceed 100 properties by the end of this year, according to Green Street. That's up from an estimated 40 failing malls in 2006, before the recession began.

"This time around, because of the dramatic changes in consumer spending practices, we're very likely to see more malls in the death spiral than we've ever seen before," says Green Street analyst Jim Sullivan.

Failing malls didn't get into trouble overnight, and most began their descent long before the tough climate. Typically, a mall begins to suffer due to job losses and other pressures in the surrounding neighborhood or because a newer mall opens nearby. The loss of key tenants -- such as the wave of department-store closures over the past three years -- hastens the demise. Also sapping malls' vibrancy: the increased preference among consumers for big-box stores, such as Wal-Mart Stores Inc. and Target Corp., which rarely operate in malls.

Developers, in fact, have been moving away from the enclosed-mall format in favor of big-box centers anchored by free-standing giants such as Wal-Mart or open-air shopping centers with tiny parks and outdoor cafes sprinkled among fashion stores. Only one enclosed mall has opened in the U.S. since 2006: The Mall at Turtle Creek in Jonesboro, Ark.

These pressures, coupled with landlords' difficulties refinancing debts in the bone-dry capital markets, signal tough years ahead for retail-property owners -- even after consumer spending begins to rebound. "The shopping-center bankruptcies and the REIT bankruptcies are the ticking time bomb that people aren't talking about," says Burt P. Flickinger III, managing director of Strategic Resource Group, a research firm.

Four months ago, executives at J.C. Penney headquarters in Plano, Texas, called a "triage" meeting to discuss a recent study of the financial condition and health of the 550 malls housing Penney stores. The study's conclusion: 15 of its stores are located in malls at risk of failure.

"We started to see things heading south," says Penney CEO Myron "Mike" Ullman III. It was important, he notes, to "get ahead of this" mall problem by reviewing Penney's new store strategy to determine whether it might relocate existing mall stores. Over the past 18 months, Penney's weekly sales have been trending better at stand-alone stores that aren't attached to traditional malls.

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Dead Mall
Faison Enterprises Inc.

Shoppers watched ice skaters on the central ice rink of Eastland Mall when the Charlotte mall opened in 1975. The ice rink closed last year, along with several of Eastland's stores.
Dead Mall
Dead Mall

Hundreds of other anchor stores -- generally two- and three-story department stores that drive mall momentum -- are pulling out of properties. Several anchor chains, including Gottschalks Inc., Goody's Family Clothing Inc. and Boscov's Department Store LLC, filed for bankruptcy protection in recent months. Goody's ended up liquidating its 282 stores, as Gottschalks is now doing with its 58. Boscov's closed 10 locations. As mall-based chains face the prospect of a much smaller market, more closures are likely. So far for 2009, monthly sales declines at upscale retailers such as Saks Inc., Nordstrom Inc. and Neiman Marcus Group have registered mostly in the double digits, compared with results a year ago.

Saks CEO Stephen Sadove is talking with mall owners about closing a few of the retailer's 53 Saks Fifth Avenue stores. "You have to ask yourself: Do you believe the prospects for a given store or mall are going to be positive? Can you make money over the long term?" he says.

For towns and cities that are home to dying malls, the fallout can be devastating. Malls hire hundreds of workers and are significant contributors to the local tax base. In suburbs and small towns, malls often are the only major public spaces and the safest venues for teenagers to shop, hang out and seek part-time work.

Commonly, "the mall will be a meeting place, or, in some cases, like a city center," says Carl Steidtmann, chief economist at Deloitte LLP. The deterioration of a mall can spawn broader problems, he notes. "It can become a crime magnet."

The gradual fade-out of marginal malls has prompted a thriving Web culture dedicated to sharing information about dead or dying properties. Sites such as Flickr.com, Deadmalls.com and Labelscar.com are drawing traffic from mall employees, shoppers and other mall mourners who swap stories, photos and predictions about the status of centers on their way out.
[Recession Turns Malls Into Ghost Towns]

"So sad!" wrote Edith Schilla, 45 years old, of Independence, Ohio, in an April 3 posting on Labelscar.com following her visit to a Sears liquidation sale at the Randall Park Mall in North Randall, Ohio. "I was able to peek into the mall and was so overtaken by the vast emptiness," she wrote, recalling it as previously "so busy."

After the Sears closes next month, Randall Park will be left with only a few remaining tenants, including an Ohio Technical College automotive school. It currently has the most popular page on Labelscar.com, which so far this year has a 25% increase in postings on its "dead malls" category. Mall owner Whichard Real Estate LLC is trying to sell the property, which likely needs to be torn down and rebuilt into something else, says Whichard asset manager Kenneth Whichard. Local officials, meanwhile, want to fill the mall with education and industrial tenants.

During past economic cycles, dead malls were frequently redeveloped into mixed-use space that includes apartments, offices or parks. Repurposing mall space today will be more difficult. Lenders and investors are moving away from commercial real estate as property values decline and delinquencies rise on debt used to acquire or develop properties. Retail real estate has been hit especially hard, as declining retail sales and store closures hammer mall landlords.

In Charlotte, Eastland's deterioration into a dead mall matches the fate of many others across the U.S.

Faison Enterprises Inc. opened Eastland in 1975 as the city's second regional mall. Shoppers crowded four-deep around its skating rink to see local dignitaries kneel gingerly on the ice as a Presbyterian minister blessed the structure with prayers. In the early years, shoppers flocked to the mall's Miller & Rhoads and Ivey's department stores, among others.

"It was just a great place to go and be seen," said Mary Kate Cline, a 51-year-old who frequented the mall in its early years but can't recall the last time she entered it.

Eastland's reign lasted roughly two decades. Its market began to erode when the area around Eastland fostered low-income housing. Meanwhile, the Charlotte area's more affluent residents and new arrivals gravitated to suburbs on the city's north and south ends. Developers built and renovated malls in those suburbs, drawing shoppers away from Eastland. In recent years, discount stores such as Wal-Mart and midtier Kohl's Corp. sprung up near Eastland, siphoning off more of its shoppers.
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“ Why go to a mall anymore? I can get whatever I want cheaper on the Internet and it comes to my door. ”

— Wade Burchette

A string of major store exits at Eastland began with Penney's departure in 2002. Belk Inc. closed in 2007, along with several national specialty stores. The closures gained momentum amid the recession last year, when stores including New York & Co., Genesco Inc.'s Journeys, Finish Line Inc. and Dillard's Inc. pulled out, leaving behind empty, gated storefronts.

A handful of retail holdouts -- stores for Footlocker Inc., Burlington Coat Factory Inc. and several local merchants, many paying reduced rents -- are reluctant to leave, even as sales dwindle. "I've made my business here," Luz Pavas said, while manning her kiosk of health and beauty aids. "I don't want to move to another mall. I want Eastland Mall to be like it was eight years ago."

Boarded-up stores near the mall languish as reminders of departed retailers, including Mega Food Market, Uptons department store and Harris Teeter Inc. Neighbors and community leaders want Eastland razed and replaced with developments such as upscale housing to attract a new demographic.

But the mall's current owner, Glimcher Realty Trust, the Columbus, Ohio-based owner of 23 malls, is keen to sell Eastland rather than spend the hefty sums needed to redevelop it. A better investment, says the company, "would be to put money into assets that were doing well," according to Glimcher spokeswoman Lisa Indest.

Charlotte city officials have lined up resources to help reinvent the mall, including $20 million in public financing. They acknowledge that finding a developer willing to underwrite the additional $180 million needed to turn Eastland into a mix of housing, shops and parks will be tough.

"No one's kidding themselves that this is an easy real-estate deal," says Charlotte City Councilman John Lassiter. "It wasn't easy when the market was good. Now it's much harder."

[ChickenCityRoller]

SS'er, I only breezer through this thread and I'm going to be critical. That said, I found out about the "new" hours of the mall through your website and shame on your for not going to the Kabelin families ACE hardware. As stated, it's a gem. The only hardware store (big box?) where incompetency isn't the benchmark as well as being the only place where you can buy onsie, twosie actual HARDWARE! While I know it's a luxury of sorts, I'd gladly pay more at ACE and keep in local than visit one of the joint on the "strip." FYI, I know ACE opens during the week at 8 and I think at 9 on the weekends but it might be earlier.