[JHeath]

I did not go, but I watched it on Ch 97.

I did find it interesting that after blasting Joie Winski's idea to move the library during the election cycle, the ND was 100% silent on that being a centerpiece of this plan, along with some major revamps of City Hall.

SSider, I've been wondering the same thing all along. But, if it goes through, they should have no problem finding enough private developers to make it happen.

[Roger Kaputnik]

The most realistic plan I have heard so far is levitation like when Abbie Hoffmann lifted the Pentagon a while back. I could set it down on the Mem Hosp site.

[lovethiscity]

I was unaware of that bit of history, lovethiscity. Before my time.

So the riverboat was placed where it is, and potential revenues from it were substantially reduced, in order to create the "Golden Triangle," with the expectation that the "Golden Triangle effect" would revitalize the north end. And then the architects of that plan, who were for the most part the architects of the Franklin Square plan which killed the north end to begin with, stepped back and waited for... I dunno, magic to happen, and the north end would resurrect itself.

Yes, Dave as stupid as it sounds this is true. While since the boat opened, we have recieved aprox. 18 million through the agreement of suitability. There is a City in Indiana that got that much last year alone through the same agreement of suitability.

I really wish someone would write a History of Michigan City which would include all this stuff. I'd pay real money for a copy of that. Stuff like which families are the prominent MC families (I'm a newcomer here, during the last primary my reaction to LaRocco was "Who?"), stuff like the history of the airport (the old one where Menard's is now, the attempt by our town fathers to scam the FAA out of grant money, and the resulting purchase of the current airport), the whole Franklin Square debacle, etc. Stuff that the LaPorte County Historical Society would find a bit too current to concern themselves with. Maybe I should check out some of their stuff anyway.

The history truthfully written as it has happened in the last 35 years would be taken as a fictional comedy. For instance as City Planner Oberlie tried to increase traffic on North Franklin and for the last ten years has been attempting through highways to nowhere in corn fields to take traffic off South Franklin. This guy has no clue. The thought of hiring a traffic study is out of the question. This is from the City that does nothing but pay for studies

[Roger Kaputnik]

Oberlie has NO BUSINESS being involved in city gov't. He was part of the planning crew that got us into such a position. He does not have the vision or brains to lead us out. MC: Fools for electing him, durn fools for re-electing him.

[JHeath]

Roger, most of us here would agree with you on that, but more of his supports came out to vote than the other 2 candidates combined...and that was a long time ago. It's time to move on, and find other ways to continue to be involved in improving the City...not just compaining with no action.

[ChickenCityRoller]

Ancient history here but I consider this the first fatal flaw our founding fathers made



Hoosier Slide, standing 175 feet tall on the west bank of Trail Creek, dominated the area's landscape for centuries. Tourists from all parts of the world arrived by excursion trains and ships to climb the huge sand dune, rewarded at the top with a spectacular view. Like many other lake dunes, Hoosier Slide was mined for use as land fill and in glass making. By the 1920's, nothing remained of the giant dune.

[Roger Kaputnik]

My point is that we see the error because we pay the opportunity cost which was essentially ignored at the time. I do not want people in the CBTL forum in 75 years to be complaining about the run-down buildings along the lake and creek and wondering how they are going to clean up the area and make it attractive.

[lovethiscity]

My point is that we see the error because we pay the opportunity cost which was essentially ignored at the time. I do not want people in the CBTL forum in 75 years to be complaining about the run-down buildings along the lake and creek and wondering how they are going to clean up the area and make it attractive.

I agree Roger, with the park board now well represented on the City Council. They will soon push to change the legislation so they can put a hotel on Bismark Hill, The last Dune in the park. We should not sit around and say nothing. We need to keep the failures up front so we do not continue repeating them.

[mcstumper]

My point is that we see the error because we pay the opportunity cost which was essentially ignored at the time. I do not want people in the CBTL forum in 75 years to be complaining about the run-down buildings along the lake and creek and wondering how they are going to clean up the area and make it attractive.

Tell me, with some specifics, how Joie Winski would be doing a better job of getting rid of the the blight on Trail Creek (Blocksom, Ice House and Weber Sign). That is, short of hosing the taxpayers by overpaying (or paying anything, for that matter). Tell me how she would have avoided all the court time associated with eminent domain. We know you have some ax to grind with the Mayor, but your are starting to sound petty.

[JHeath]

How quickly we forget what we've said in the past, MCStumper.
These are quotes from you regarding the North End plan that Joie presented during her campaign:

mcstumper Apr 10 2007, 06:38 PM | Post #3|

I like this plan. Library and City Hall relocation is a key element in restoring steady traffic flows on north Franklin St. and helping restore viability to the store fronts there. However, I have to question the timing. I think this is the wrong time to address this plan. We need to focus on acquiring the Blocksom property and then developing a plan for redeveloping the Trail Creek corridor that the community can get behind. One big project at a time, with succinctness and focus.

mcstumper Apr 11 2007, 07:55 PM

I think that 2-3 years is unrealistic. If the Blocksom negotiations are going as well as Michael B. indicates, I think that we need to focus our energy on that project and get it pushed through.

The library needs to be moved, but the million dollar question is "to where"? You think there is a lot of 'talk' about the Blocksom, Icehouse, Weber sign properties?! The public input process on where to locate the library and the design of the new building could take 2 1/2 years all by itself.

You seemed to have liked her ideas then...what changed for you?
By the way, she's not even part of the redevelopment commission anymore. She wasn't reappointed this year (or did you miss that when it happened a few months ago?) Leave her out of it.

Roger's post had more to do with private developers monopolizing the lakefront and restricting public access than anything else.

[edgeywood]

I agree with most of your post. The part I disagree with is that the triangle is part of it. When Sheila was on the committee selecting the company to receive the license here, she chose Blue Chip and its upstream location. Solely to create the Golden Triangle. The other two firms were offering between 15 and 20 million more per year through the agreement of suitability. Just having the Golden Triangle would revitalize downtown MC by itself. Never happened. When other Cities with boats are getting 5-8% of the adjusted gross revenue, we are getting a whopping .6%

The fact is that 2 legs of the Golden Triangle are not designed to revitalize anything. The Outlet Mall and the boat are designed to keep people confined to those areas. As an "economic engine", casinos and boats have failed to revitalize any area. Sure the Boat brings in $$$ but at what cost to the community at large?

Same deal with the Outlet Mall, it really did little for the immediate neighborhood.

The library didn't kill the North End...the Marquette Mall and the South End did that. The scenario of the malls killing off the downtowns played out all over the country. So lets look at the some nearby communities that made the same mistake and have managed to correct it...Chicago and Oak Park both have vibrant downtowns after a pedestrian mall fiasco.

We have great transportation from the North End to Chicago. OK, it takes 1.5 hours, but lots of people are commuting that long from Naperville, Lemont, Racine, etc... to Chicago and they are paying premium prices for their homes in those suburbs. Why doesn't someone market Michigan City to those people?

Meanwhile, the Mayor is bound and determined to move the South Shore from the North End. Proximity to a commuter train is a huge asset for any neighborhood, but MC seems determined to squander yet another opportunity.

[Southsider2k12]

http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=77823.13

North End Studies
The Latest Study Report Now Issued

Editorial

Now that Andrews University has made its final presentation to the city, what's next?

Will this become merely the latest study done in the city in the past two decades to sit on a shelf and collect dust, or is this a study the city will actually put to use?

If the framework laid out by Mayor Chuck Oberlie in his State of the City address on Jan. 2 is any indication, some of the proposals brought up in the Andrews University study, as well as studies by consulting firms Lohan Anderson and JJR Inc., are being put in place.

Taken together, the three studies present a vision that would transform Michigan City. Some of the changes proposed make some residents nervous because the changes call for nothing less than a completely different downtown and North End. Frankly, that's not a bad idea because the North End as it stand now isn't working.

"Everything we've done here is a proposal that has to be taken to the next level," said Andrew Von Maur, the head of the design studio at Andrews University. "It's not a 100-percent blueprint to follow, but it shows how development should work."

Among the key proposals recommended in the Andrews study is making the downtown more pedestrian friendly by opening Franklin Street to two-way traffic and developing land along Trail Creek so that it becomes a pedestrian destination.

Both ideas were prominent in Oberlie's State of the City address. The mayor presented 21 key points in his address to develop the North End, and virtually all of the ideas came from one of the studies that were conducted in the city last year.

Will all of the ideas put forth in the studies be implemented?

Probably not. But there are enough ideas to result in major changes in the city that will encourage development and show to the rest of the state, region and nation that Michigan City is a community that's looking to the future and is the kind of place that's interested in new business. And when that happens, the city will also become a place where people want to live.

The Issue: Recent studies present a vision for redeveloping the city's North End.

Our Opinion: Mayor Chuck Oberlie has outlined a timeline for actual redevelopment, which could transform the city into the kind of place business seeks and where people want to live.

[Dave]

http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=77823.13

I wonder if there is a greater than zero chance of Oberlie actually reading the Lohan Anderson plan or the Andrews University plan and realizing that one of the key elements for North End redevelopment is having the South Shore here.

Probably not. Why TF do these people insist on spending so goddamn much money on plans they don't intend to implement?

[Roger Kaputnik]

I would rather everyone waited until Oberlie was gone from office and any position of influence. He has been involved in too much for too long, and now he sounds like he is pushing stuff that these readers know I am four-square against. Sheesh! What will it take to keep them from messing stuff up even more?

[mcstumper]

You seemed to have liked her ideas then...what changed for you?
By the way, she's not even part of the redevelopment commission anymore. She wasn't reappointed this year (or did you miss that when it happened a few months ago?) Leave her out of it.

Roger's post had more to do with private developers monopolizing the lakefront and restricting public access than anything else.

I see no reason to leave her out of it. She was Chuck's opponent. Rog's post had nothing to do with private developers, but was a rant against the Mayor for not being able to get the creekside slums cleaned up. Since we are all "fools" for re-electing him, he seems to be indicating that a Winski administration would have been smart enough to have gotten all of this taken care of by now. I would like a few specifics on how that would get accomplished so quickly.

As far as what changed my mind... nothing. The library needs to be moved. However, on our list of things to do, it ranks right behind moving the State Prison to Westville and moving the NIPSCO plant to the shores of Pine Lake.

[mcstumper]

Why doesn't someone market Michigan City to those people?

Meanwhile, the Mayor is bound and determined to move the South Shore from the North End. Proximity to a commuter train is a huge asset for any neighborhood, but MC seems determined to squander yet another opportunity.

Advertising to outsiders is to invite change. But whether they are advertised to or not, they will come. At my church this weekend, I was introduced to a younger couple from the Northside of Chicago that bought a house here (in the City proper) in the last year. For the time being they spend every other weekend here. Their intention is to eventually give up the Chicago life, move out here and commute. He said repeatedly how much they love it here and how well the commute times compare to the west and northwest suburbs. He told a client of his in passing how much he liked it, and out of the blue he runs into her at a store in town, only to find out that she had looked into it and bought a place of her own here...

As for the SS relocation, remember that accessibility is really a combination of physical proximity and parking availability. How much prime real estate are we going to sacrifice to not only build an elevated railway, but to also build the parking lots necessary for all the commuters. The drive from Elston Grove to Al's (which I imagine is very close to where a relocated train station would be), can't be more than 3 minutes.

[JHeath]

I see no reason to leave her out of it. She was Chuck's opponent. Rog's post had nothing to do with private developers, but was a rant against the Mayor for not being able to get the creekside slums cleaned up. Since we are all "fools" for re-electing him, he seems to be indicating that a Winski administration would have been smart enough to have gotten all of this taken care of by now. I would like a few specifics on how that would get accomplished so quickly.

As far as what changed my mind... nothing. The library needs to be moved. However, on our list of things to do, it ranks right behind moving the State Prison to Westville and moving the NIPSCO plant to the shores of Pine Lake.

Yes, she was one of two of his opponents. But you haven't mentions Jim Larocco anywhere in this...
and if you'd read Roger's other posts you'd realize that his major beef is actually about the shrinking public access to the waterfront. But, if you really want to know what Joie would do differently, call and ask her. I'm sure she'd be glad to share her ideas with you.

Enough said. Let's focus on the topic now.

[Dave]

....
As for the SS relocation, remember that accessibility is really a combination of physical proximity and parking availability. How much prime real estate are we going to sacrifice to not only build an elevated railway, but to also build the parking lots necessary for all the commuters. The drive from Elston Grove to Al's (which I imagine is very close to where a relocated train station would be), can't be more than 3 minutes.

Elevated railway? Like the El in Chicago? Who is proposing anything like that for the SS?

As for the drive being three minutes, well, for one thing that works both ways. The Andrews U. plan proposes showcasing the SS station on 11th., and includes parking. As for sacrificing prime real estate, it doesn't seem to be very prime at the moment. It will hopefully be prime in the future, but it need to be revitalized first. And I think moving the SS away from the north end is a major step in the wrong direction towards acheiving that goal.

[lovethiscity]

I see no reason to leave her out of it. She was Chuck's opponent. Rog's post had nothing to do with private developers, but was a rant against the Mayor for not being able to get the creekside slums cleaned up. Since we are all "fools" for re-electing him, he seems to be indicating that a Winski administration would have been smart enough to have gotten all of this taken care of by now. I would like a few specifics on how that would get accomplished so quickly.

As far as what changed my mind... nothing. The library needs to be moved. However, on our list of things to do, it ranks right behind moving the State Prison to Westville and moving the NIPSCO plant to the shores of Pine Lake.

As far as I know, none of us here at CBTL is Joie Winski. Asking us what she would do is kind of silly, it would be made up and none factual. She is pretty easy to get a hold of, call her and ask her about the Creek area. What we do know about is her stand on Franklin St. At City hall during the St. Andrews plan presentation, this was revealed but for some reason kept out of the press. "All of the experts we consulted say the success of North End revitalization calls for relocating the LIBRARY" that would put it at the top of the list, not somewhere behind ridding Michigan City of its single largest employer.

[lovethiscity]

Advertising to outsiders is to invite change. But whether they are advertised to or not, they will come. At my church this weekend, I was introduced to a younger couple from the Northside of Chicago that bought a house here (in the City proper) in the last year. For the time being they spend every other weekend here. Their intention is to eventually give up the Chicago life, move out here and commute. He said repeatedly how much they love it here and how well the commute times compare to the west and northwest suburbs. He told a client of his in passing how much he liked it, and out of the blue he runs into her at a store in town, only to find out that she had looked into it and bought a place of her own here...

Please don't come up with an opinion soley on two people moving into your Parish. Michigan City has had a populaltion decline for over thirty years. Expert projections are not very promising for the next ten either. Very bleak actualy when compared to Lake and Porter.

Population projections from the Indiana Business Research Center indicate that, by 2020, the Michigan City–La Porte metro will grow 2.3 percent (about 2,500 people) from current levels. This is significantly slower than the state’s anticipated growth of 8.1 percent. The area is expected to have about 5,000 more senior citizens than it did in Census 2000. The growth rate of 34.1 percent for those 65 and older is slower than the state’s anticipated growth of 40.6 percent. However, the metro has a slightly older population to begin with and by 2020, nearly 18 percent of the population will be in the upper age group.

Updated growth projections released Friday for Lake and Porter counties show a 239 percent increase over a prior population forecast, according to a South Shore Railroad consultant.