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> Michigan City College Scholarship, New Proposal
exsteel5
post Jun 29 2016, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Jun 28 2016, 01:07 PM) *

So why haven't Kalamazoo, Hammond, and New Buffalo been sued out of existence yet? All of those programs include at least one element of what things that you are saying Michigan City would be discriminating with.

Also with the voucher system and the indiana school funding formula, schools do miss out on funds when a student attends another school. In fact, it would be just as easy to argue that by funding private school kids, we are violating the separation of church and state.

Hammond only discriminates against apartment dwellers, otherwise they are fairly inclusive, and New Buffalo and Kalamazoo are funded by private donors and a fund set up by Four Winds Indian Tribe AND there was a special Michigan Law enacted that allowed this program.

We will see, the way the MC program is set up with public dollars, and the vast discrimination that is included, it will probably be a long legal expense for the City. Now, if the council members and special committee actually did their homework and learned that a private fund should/could be set up to avoid legal exposure, they might be able to use the discriminatory rules they want to use, but they don't typically do thorough research.

It seems like a slam dunk for the ACLU to win with damages. We will see. Please don't ask me again what specific law is being broken, they usually make them up as they need to.
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Southsider2k12
post Jun 29 2016, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE(exsteel5 @ Jun 29 2016, 04:21 PM) *

Hammond only discriminates against apartment dwellers, otherwise they are fairly inclusive, and New Buffalo and Kalamazoo are funded by private donors and a fund set up by Four Winds Indian Tribe AND there was a special Michigan Law enacted that allowed this program.

We will see, the way the MC program is set up with public dollars, and the vast discrimination that is included, it will probably be a long legal expense for the City. Now, if the council members and special committee actually did their homework and learned that a private fund should/could be set up to avoid legal exposure, they might be able to use the discriminatory rules they want to use, but they don't typically do thorough research.

It seems like a slam dunk for the ACLU to win with damages. We will see. Please don't ask me again what specific law is being broken, they usually make them up as they need to.


The law you quoted is a federal law. No state law can supersede a federal law. If what you are saying is actually true, then those programs are illegal as well. The more I read this stuff, it sounds like someone is upset they aren't getting a handout.
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exsteel5
post Jun 30 2016, 11:02 AM
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QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Jun 29 2016, 10:56 PM) *

The law you quoted is a federal law. No state law can supersede a federal law. If what you are saying is actually true, then those programs are illegal as well. The more I read this stuff, it sounds like someone is upset they aren't getting a handout.

Thats funny. No, I don't need a handout. I just wish they would stop wasting our tax dollars by putting them into these programs that discriminate against people that pay the taxes. If they are so determined to get people to move to Michigan City, why don't they lower the tax rates. If we are going to waste tax dollars, this program is not too bad if it was fair, but politicians only want to be fair when it helps their personal causes. It does not matter what you and I say, they will do what they want anyway.
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Southsider2k12
post Jun 30 2016, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE(exsteel5 @ Jun 30 2016, 12:02 PM) *

Thats funny. No, I don't need a handout. I just wish they would stop wasting our tax dollars by putting them into these programs that discriminate against people that pay the taxes. If they are so determined to get people to move to Michigan City, why don't they lower the tax rates. If we are going to waste tax dollars, this program is not too bad if it was fair, but politicians only want to be fair when it helps their personal causes. It does not matter what you and I say, they will do what they want anyway.


Nothing you said here is actually reality.

This program isn't "discriminatory". Claiming it a lot doesn't actually make it true. You can't even say what law is actually being violated, mostly because it isn't happening.

Michigan City has some of the lowest tax rates around, and some of the lowest property values around. Taxes are ridiculously low here.

Scholarship programs aren't a "waste of money". They are an asset to help kids start an adult life debt free, which is a big advantage. If education is a "personal cause" well then sign me up.
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indianamaniac
post Jun 30 2016, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE(exsteel5 @ Jun 30 2016, 11:02 AM) *

Thats funny. No, I don't need a handout. I just wish they would stop wasting our tax dollars by putting them into these programs that discriminate against people that pay the taxes. If they are so determined to get people to move to Michigan City, why don't they lower the tax rates. If we are going to waste tax dollars, this program is not too bad if it was fair, but politicians only want to be fair when it helps their personal causes. It does not matter what you and I say, they will do what they want anyway.


You keep saying "discriminate." You have the option of meeting the qualification. Race, gender, sexual orientation, age, or religion cannot prevent you from owning property in Michigan City and attending the public schools and becoming eligible for the scholarship. If you choose not to, that's your decision. We've been funneling tax dollars into private education for the past several years. Is that a 'waste' too?
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exsteel5
post Jul 1 2016, 11:06 AM
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QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Jun 30 2016, 07:22 PM) *

Nothing you said here is actually reality.

This program isn't "discriminatory". Claiming it a lot doesn't actually make it true. You can't even say what law is actually being violated, mostly because it isn't happening.

Michigan City has some of the lowest tax rates around, and some of the lowest property values around. Taxes are ridiculously low here.

Scholarship programs aren't a "waste of money". They are an asset to help kids start an adult life debt free, which is a big advantage. If education is a "personal cause" well then sign me up.

Federal Case law is being violated for people that move into the area and are treated like second class citizens because they have not lived in MC and attended MC schools for a certain number of years. The Supreme Court has already ruled that newcomers to a local are allowed to get full benefits offered with public funds. I don't know why the other programs have not had suits brought against them for this? Did you read the article I posted earlier? It describes all of that.

Taxes are low because we have the casino boat. Once you shift the boat money to this program, taxes will need to go up to pay for the things that are not getting paid for with the boat money now.

There are much better ways to make this program work and to keep taxes low. First, the Mayor and council members need to decide what their vision is for this program...is it to get more taxpayers into Michigan City and increase home values or is it to fill MCHS schools with MC citizens? Hammond has the vision to get more taxpayers into Hammond and to keep them in Hammond.
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exsteel5
post Jul 1 2016, 11:16 AM
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QUOTE(indianamaniac @ Jun 30 2016, 11:52 PM) *

You keep saying "discriminate." You have the option of meeting the qualification. Race, gender, sexual orientation, age, or religion cannot prevent you from owning property in Michigan City and attending the public schools and becoming eligible for the scholarship. If you choose not to, that's your decision. We've been funneling tax dollars into private education for the past several years. Is that a 'waste' too?

I like the monkey face. No, the things you mentioned don't prevent one from home ownership in MC, but poverty does. Not everyone can get a loan to buy a house nor take care of a house. I thought we figured that out in 2008. Many people do not "choose" to live in apartment, but they do what they have to do. They are discriminating against 1) the poor, 2) the newly arrived citizens and 3) people that choose not to accept the public school offering for whatever reason.

I did not saying funneling tax money into private education was a waste. I said this program, if implemented unfairly, is a waste because it will cause more people to leave then it will to stay in MC. It defeats the purpose of what I think the vision of the originators is.

The best way to dole out the education tax dollars would be to give every kid a certain amount of money every year for education and let the schools compete for that kid and those dollars. Now that would be free enterprise and you would see some excellent schools trying to attract the tax money.

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Southsider2k12
post Jul 1 2016, 11:48 AM
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QUOTE(exsteel5 @ Jul 1 2016, 12:06 PM) *

Federal Case law is being violated for people that move into the area and are treated like second class citizens because they have not lived in MC and attended MC schools for a certain number of years. The Supreme Court has already ruled that newcomers to a local are allowed to get full benefits offered with public funds. I don't know why the other programs have not had suits brought against them for this? Did you read the article I posted earlier? It describes all of that.

Taxes are low because we have the casino boat. Once you shift the boat money to this program, taxes will need to go up to pay for the things that are not getting paid for with the boat money now.

There are much better ways to make this program work and to keep taxes low. First, the Mayor and council members need to decide what their vision is for this program...is it to get more taxpayers into Michigan City and increase home values or is it to fill MCHS schools with MC citizens? Hammond has the vision to get more taxpayers into Hammond and to keep them in Hammond.


Again, if federal law is being violated, how are other programs around the United States doing exactly this, and have been doing it for a number of years? Why is Kalamazoo still doing this exactly the same way? Because you posted a legal opinion given by a college professor, and not a courts opinion. That isn't the same thing, hopefully you understand the difference.

Looking back at Hammonds program, they also use many of the same standards, which are what is being discussed in that paper from 2008 you posted:

-lower percentages of scholarship money for those who haven't lived in the district as long
-homeowners only eligible.

The goal here is completely obvious, and I outlined it earlier. I think the goal of these repeatedly misleading posts is also clear, as I mentioned earlier.
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Mike D
post Jul 11 2016, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE(Southsider2k12 @ Jul 1 2016, 12:48 PM) *

Again, if federal law is being violated, how are other programs around the United States doing exactly this, and have been doing it for a number of years? Why is Kalamazoo still doing this exactly the same way? Because you posted a legal opinion given by a college professor, and not a courts opinion. That isn't the same thing, hopefully you understand the difference.

Looking back at Hammonds program, they also use many of the same standards, which are what is being discussed in that paper from 2008 you posted:

-lower percentages of scholarship money for those who haven't lived in the district as long
-homeowners only eligible.

The goal here is completely obvious, and I outlined it earlier. I think the goal of these repeatedly misleading posts is also clear, as I mentioned earlier.


Full disclosure: 2 kids in MCAS, went to catholic school, 2 degrees post secondary, homeowner and another property, work in private business in LP county.

A few points:

1. The reputation of the school system in MC is completely misunderstood especially by those who have no kids in the system. MCAS is solid - this is from a consumer who knows all about the laws here in Indiana (and the options they provide). Basically, administrators decided that those children who want to learn will be taught in accelerated fashion, or parents who choose a "track" for their kids, may do so. As a result, we have a very solid foundation of learning for children who want to learn and it supports responsible parents who want a good education for their children. That is a growing percentage of the student population. The rest are given the basics, given some options and get passed along as the system provides. G&T programs now start in 3rd grade! An 8th grader can have 3 HS courses completed before entering MCHS. MCHS grads can have 9 units done before post secondary education. News flash: this I not available in most Indiana or Illinois districts! People who continue to believe and espouse the notion that MCAS is a failed or failing institution are just plain wrong.

2. You could refer to my posts about Indiana's Choice program if you like, but the battle between church and state has been fought and lost by the ACLU and is not likely to be tried again. That ship sailed. Your tax dollars will contribute something like $40 million this year and likely more in coming years to this program - which was billed as a tax savings program. BTW, that was a republican program - fiscal conservatives - sure. Keep hating and labeling those Democrats - but don't evaluate the other side.

3. The splash park is fine - my kids love it and continue to enjoy it. It is clean, usually running pretty good, and there is usually someone around in a golf cart keeping an eye on things. It's paid for.

4. Now - to the Promise program. It was said that officials from the council and the admin contacted several programs about all the issues - true. Here is a response to the detractors:

1. inside city corp - it's all about the property values, which will rise when demand for units rise and assessments rise meaning tax revenues rise. The folks in outlying areas do not pay the same rates (yes, rates) then those inside the city limits (have you ever compared them - you would be amazed at what shoreland, LB, springfield and other areas pay), have lower assessments (again baffling) and therefore pay less in property taxes, even though for the most part, they get everything a city dweller gets except maybe water. So the benefit goes to the payer - seems good to me.

2. Not going to MCHS and other MCAS requirements. There is already a program for these folks called Indiana Choice, which thanks to the deeply controlled republican Indiana government, you can apply for even if you make $100k year - no assets tests, don't even ever have to have been a part of MCAS or other public program, simply sigh up. We are trying to boost MCHS enrollment - why should we help the other side? This has been an issue before with charter schools and won. If you do no want to be a part of the public system , Indiana supports you. if you want to be a part of the public school system, MC supports you.

3. Renters. The thinking is that most of these folks will have other avenues of support to tap, which is true. I have pointed out the demographics of the city, using state data, which proves that most renters are probably at or under 2x the poverty rate, which pretty much qualifies children for all types of money (scholarships, grants from places like Unity Foundation, et al.). If it is a single parent situation, double it - not to mention all the other stuff like medical, book cost assistance, transport reimbursement and a variety of other helping dollars.

The Boyd Redevelopment Fund is a special pot of money with some very special conditions, but the most special is the "future benefit" clause. What could be more beneficial to your City then the support of middle income people coming back to create a strong City for their future and ours (as retirees) as home owners, job creators, professionals and educators (Republican, Democrat or Independent like me). And great graduates of our fine post secondary institutions (like PNW).

To label someone with a political tag does a gross disservice to us as voters as if republican and democrat are monolithic. Almost 80% of us define ourselves as open to suggestion at the polls, and judging from the way Indiana has voted over the last 2 decades, that sure is true. Stop using those terms as pejoratives. The moderator should know better (as in "moderation").

Finally, and seems to be a point of the discussion, not many challenges to the laws concerning Promise have been brought and none have been won. The precedent was set in 2013 in the decision about Choice - basically- the state can't tell you where to send your kids to school - so guess what - state money goes to state participants and if that money is generated in a municipality - the benefit goes to the homeowner. I highly doubt it will be challenged. You Dem haters rejoiced at the 2013 decision - now you pay for it (no complaints) and now you want to twist it back. The courts are seeing through this and are not likely to push it back without a major re-evaluation of Choice.

For those of you who would like to have a say, here is Richard Murphy's letter to attend the meetings:

Dear MCAS, MCEDC, MCNEAT, Michigan City Chamber of Commerce, and other Champions for Michigan City:

First reading of the Michigan City Scholarship Program took place at Tuesday’s Council Meeting.

The ordinance was referred to committee and the next meeting is the Council Finance Committee meeting on Tuesday, July 12th at 5:00 pm at City Hall.

Second reading is scheduled to be at the July 19 Council meeting at 6:30 pm at City Hall.

Third reading and the City Council VOTE on the ordinance is scheduled to be at the Aug 2 City Council meeting at 6:30 pm at City Hall.

We need your support at the rest of these meetings and all the way to the vote.

Please show up at these meetings, write letters of support, and speak in favor of this transformative opportunity for Michigan City!

Thank you,

Rich Murphy
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Mike D
post Aug 3 2016, 09:49 AM
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QUOTE(Mike D @ Jul 11 2016, 11:31 AM) *

Full disclosure: 2 kids in MCAS, went to catholic school, 2 degrees post secondary, homeowner and another property, work in private business in LP county.

A few points:

1. The reputation of the school system in MC is completely misunderstood especially by those who have no kids in the system. MCAS is solid - this is from a consumer who knows all about the laws here in Indiana (and the options they provide). Basically, administrators decided that those children who want to learn will be taught in accelerated fashion, or parents who choose a "track" for their kids, may do so. As a result, we have a very solid foundation of learning for children who want to learn and it supports responsible parents who want a good education for their children. That is a growing percentage of the student population. The rest are given the basics, given some options and get passed along as the system provides. G&T programs now start in 3rd grade! An 8th grader can have 3 HS courses completed before entering MCHS. MCHS grads can have 9 units done before post secondary education. News flash: this I not available in most Indiana or Illinois districts! People who continue to believe and espouse the notion that MCAS is a failed or failing institution are just plain wrong.

2. You could refer to my posts about Indiana's Choice program if you like, but the battle between church and state has been fought and lost by the ACLU and is not likely to be tried again. That ship sailed. Your tax dollars will contribute something like $40 million this year and likely more in coming years to this program - which was billed as a tax savings program. BTW, that was a republican program - fiscal conservatives - sure. Keep hating and labeling those Democrats - but don't evaluate the other side.

3. The splash park is fine - my kids love it and continue to enjoy it. It is clean, usually running pretty good, and there is usually someone around in a golf cart keeping an eye on things. It's paid for.

4. Now - to the Promise program. It was said that officials from the council and the admin contacted several programs about all the issues - true. Here is a response to the detractors:

1. inside city corp - it's all about the property values, which will rise when demand for units rise and assessments rise meaning tax revenues rise. The folks in outlying areas do not pay the same rates (yes, rates) then those inside the city limits (have you ever compared them - you would be amazed at what shoreland, LB, springfield and other areas pay), have lower assessments (again baffling) and therefore pay less in property taxes, even though for the most part, they get everything a city dweller gets except maybe water. So the benefit goes to the payer - seems good to me.

2. Not going to MCHS and other MCAS requirements. There is already a program for these folks called Indiana Choice, which thanks to the deeply controlled republican Indiana government, you can apply for even if you make $100k year - no assets tests, don't even ever have to have been a part of MCAS or other public program, simply sigh up. We are trying to boost MCHS enrollment - why should we help the other side? This has been an issue before with charter schools and won. If you do no want to be a part of the public system , Indiana supports you. if you want to be a part of the public school system, MC supports you.

3. Renters. The thinking is that most of these folks will have other avenues of support to tap, which is true. I have pointed out the demographics of the city, using state data, which proves that most renters are probably at or under 2x the poverty rate, which pretty much qualifies children for all types of money (scholarships, grants from places like Unity Foundation, et al.). If it is a single parent situation, double it - not to mention all the other stuff like medical, book cost assistance, transport reimbursement and a variety of other helping dollars.

The Boyd Redevelopment Fund is a special pot of money with some very special conditions, but the most special is the "future benefit" clause. What could be more beneficial to your City then the support of middle income people coming back to create a strong City for their future and ours (as retirees) as home owners, job creators, professionals and educators (Republican, Democrat or Independent like me). And great graduates of our fine post secondary institutions (like PNW).

To label someone with a political tag does a gross disservice to us as voters as if republican and democrat are monolithic. Almost 80% of us define ourselves as open to suggestion at the polls, and judging from the way Indiana has voted over the last 2 decades, that sure is true. Stop using those terms as pejoratives. The moderator should know better (as in "moderation").

Finally, and seems to be a point of the discussion, not many challenges to the laws concerning Promise have been brought and none have been won. The precedent was set in 2013 in the decision about Choice - basically- the state can't tell you where to send your kids to school - so guess what - state money goes to state participants and if that money is generated in a municipality - the benefit goes to the homeowner. I highly doubt it will be challenged. You Dem haters rejoiced at the 2013 decision - now you pay for it (no complaints) and now you want to twist it back. The courts are seeing through this and are not likely to push it back without a major re-evaluation of Choice.

For those of you who would like to have a say, here is Richard Murphy's letter to attend the meetings:

Dear MCAS, MCEDC, MCNEAT, Michigan City Chamber of Commerce, and other Champions for Michigan City:

First reading of the Michigan City Scholarship Program took place at Tuesday’s Council Meeting.

The ordinance was referred to committee and the next meeting is the Council Finance Committee meeting on Tuesday, July 12th at 5:00 pm at City Hall.

Second reading is scheduled to be at the July 19 Council meeting at 6:30 pm at City Hall.

Third reading and the City Council VOTE on the ordinance is scheduled to be at the Aug 2 City Council meeting at 6:30 pm at City Hall.

We need your support at the rest of these meetings and all the way to the vote.

Please show up at these meetings, write letters of support, and speak in favor of this transformative opportunity for Michigan City!

Thank you,

Rich Murphy


The vote was 9-0 last night. The audience applauded. Attendance was very good. Speakers (including our moderator, I believe) presented their cases - overwhelming for the proposal (though by reading today's ND, you wouldn't think that - eeeesh!). The best part was the support by Mayor Tom McDermott of Hammond, who spoke kindly about MC and his own program. He has been mayor for 13 years - 10 of them with Promise. It costs them $3 million a year. Population is steady to growing, property values are up and the business community loves it (evident from some matching dollars they contribute).

If you do the math on the coming group, MC will need about $850,000 in the first year and the budget is set for $2.5 million. Mayor Meer did reach out to the townships to get LP county involved for them. Horizon Bank is on board with money for low income folks who want home ownership (Fifth third is said to be coming in). It was stated by Mayor McDermott that some of the house purchases are directly related to the Promise Scholarships because the return is there (do the math - it works here, too!).

If ever there was a time when MCAS/MCHS and our City turned a corner , this is it. You can...Be Proud!
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Southsider2k12
post Aug 3 2016, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE(Mike D @ Aug 3 2016, 10:49 AM) *

The vote was 9-0 last night. The audience applauded. Attendance was very good. Speakers (including our moderator, I believe) presented their cases - overwhelming for the proposal (though by reading today's ND, you wouldn't think that - eeeesh!). The best part was the support by Mayor Tom McDermott of Hammond, who spoke kindly about MC and his own program. He has been mayor for 13 years - 10 of them with Promise. It costs them $3 million a year. Population is steady to growing, property values are up and the business community loves it (evident from some matching dollars they contribute).

If you do the math on the coming group, MC will need about $850,000 in the first year and the budget is set for $2.5 million. Mayor Meer did reach out to the townships to get LP county involved for them. Horizon Bank is on board with money for low income folks who want home ownership (Fifth third is said to be coming in). It was stated by Mayor McDermott that some of the house purchases are directly related to the Promise Scholarships because the return is there (do the math - it works here, too!).

If ever there was a time when MCAS/MCHS and our City turned a corner , this is it. You can...Be Proud!


Yes I did speak last night, and was very happy to see the unanimous vote. This is going to be a great asset for City.
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Jesse B
post Aug 4 2016, 07:37 AM
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Was there ever any clarification on which Indiana Colleges and Universities this scholarship will be good for? Any Indiana University or only state schools? I never did see or hear that? Is it good for IU Northwest but not Bloomington? Good for Purdue Calumet and Ivy Tech however not good for Notre Dame or Wabash?

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Southsider2k12
post Aug 10 2016, 10:12 AM
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QUOTE(Jesse B @ Aug 4 2016, 08:37 AM) *

Was there ever any clarification on which Indiana Colleges and Universities this scholarship will be good for? Any Indiana University or only state schools? I never did see or hear that? Is it good for IU Northwest but not Bloomington? Good for Purdue Calumet and Ivy Tech however not good for Notre Dame or Wabash?


I know it was outlined, but I do not have the information in front of me.
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