There are a total of 435 congressional districts in America. Gallup/USA did a year long study to show the well-being of different states and districts...and found...Indiana Congressional District Number 2 ranked 423rd for our "well being". We were also dead last for "healthy behavior" and 417th in "life evaluation", which is how you see your life now, when compared to five years from now.

I was pretty shocked, I actually really dig this area and wouldn't want to move anywhere else. The study is based on the World Health Organization's definition of health which includes the state of physical, mental and social well being.

You can see the "raw data" for yourself by going to http://www.ahiphiwire.org/WellBeing/

then just type in your zip code, click on show congressional districts and hit generate report

I read that story on Yahoo news:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090311/ap_on_...es_of_happiness

Wyoming ranked 3rd for Happiness. I'm tellin' ya it's cause the sun shines EVERY DAY!!!

Interesting. I agree with the last statistic whole heartedly, as I have never seen an area that was so negative about everything. In my eyes it is the areas biggest challenge to improving itself is that change is shot down before it can even get off of the ground.

I've lived here all my life, so I don't know any different. I have many friends who have moved away and most of them said they would never return to the midwest, for various reasons..such as, people are friendlier where they are, there is more to do, more culture, less pollution and better paying jobs.

So Johnny, I am assuming you guys talked about this on Live and Local, what was the consensus? We don't have it as bad as lots of the country. There is way worse poverty in many intercity districts, in the Appalachians, and in the deep south. Our incomes show that our view of our jobs situation is way worse than reality shows, as it our well being index. We also are the worst in the country at taking care of ourselves. How crazy is that? Any overwhelming public opinion there? Why are we so excessively negative???

That is a huge surprise to me and is the exact opposite of my experience Homey. I am not talking about MC alone (obviously I am new here). I am talking about Indiana and the midwest. I spent over 20 years in real estate in Indianapolis and worked with many transplants into Indiana. All of them (without exception) said that Indiana (Indianapolis area) was the friendliest place they had ever experienced. Followup with them in the year or two after they moved to Indiana, they loved it even more.

I have noticed a negativity in the mindsets of residents in the Michigan City area (also a lot of NW Indiana), that I have not experienced elsewhere in the state. I am coming to believe that this area's residents are their own worst enemies. That said, everyone here has been friendly to me and of course my nature is to be friendly. MC is a friendly place, if you are a friendly person.

Of course my daughter says I am too friendly. When she lived in DC area and I visited her, I often embarrassed her by initiating friendly small talk with strangers on the subways. (I could see that many of the people there are a little more defensive and keep to themselves more. However I did manage to strike up many friendly exchanges anyway)

I wonder if a negative attitude is contagious or if it runs from one generation into another. It is true that Indiana (even this area of Indiana) is in better financial shape than many of the other states in the country at this time. Of course one of the reasons for that may be our questioning of any kind of change - that at least causes us to take a closer look at things prior to jumping onto a financial change bandwagon. However resistance to change out of fear is not a good thing.

Perhaps we should band together to help change the negative attitude wherever we can. I truly believe attitude can have an effect on our well being (emotionally, physically and financially to some extent). A good attitude is noticed and appreciated in job interviews and in the workplace. Working with or around negative people brings everyone down. Living with or around them may also have the same affect. I hope not.

I can't justify it IndyT, it's their experiences I'm offering. I have family in North Carolina and they love it there, in San Antonio where the have adopted the whole Texan attitude where they believe there is no where else to live. Santa Barbara, where everything is so beautiful most days of the year, she even says the Walmarts are beautifly landscaped and the culture is different. Most say pedistrian traffic is better and they lead more active lifestyles.

I think probably most people come to regard where they live as "God's country" (except for NW Indiana for some reason). However since moving here, I have been a major proponent of MC as "God's country" to my friends and relatives in central and southern Indiana. How could it not be? Beautiful lake and beaches, sand dunes, so many restaurants, shopping opportunities, nice movie theater, parks and other nice places to walk, etc (especially for such a small city). We have definite climate seasons that offer opportunities for a variety of outdoor activities year round. I have a friend who loves to visit and spend the day shopping in the local antique and junk stores, (and in the summer relax on the lakeshore) and then take advantage of the nighttime activities (Blue Chip, the local pubs, etc).

Good post. There is obviously something here worth seeing, because the tourism industry is huge. People come here to see our natural beauty, and they participate in many of our institutions. It is the people who are here as residents who seem to think it sucks here. The raw data agrees it isn't nearly as bad as many people think it is.

Life is better here in Casper, WY, too. The economy is good. Currently things in the oilfield industry are a little slow and it's had a trickle down into other areas, but it's the oilfield industry so it will pick back up again soon.
The weather is good, the air is clean and the sun shines all the time. There are tons of activities all year long, and most of them are free so even the po' folks have something to do.

Don't get me wrong, MC is my home town and I love it. However, the people are full of hate and misery. The weather is rotton and too cloudy and gloomy. The economy and schools are in a bad state. What's to be happy about there?

Well, I'll offer an opinion on this.

I lived in Northern Indiana most of my life prior to 2000. I moved to Texas on some poster's wedding day...

The attitude here is so much different then Northern Indiana. I think that a lot of people sort of have that "welfare" mentality up there. I don't mean to knock anyone from there, but it just seems like people think that they deserve to be given more up there. When it isn't, they get bitter. I'm not sure where it even stems from but it's certainly evident.

In tourist areas, such as MC, people (out of towners) aren't there for the attitudes, work, or any other thing, they are there to get away from their day to day. Surroundings and beauty is soothing, but when you see it every day, it's not the same. People that are from MC don't think about what's there because they see it every day.

Really, an attitude is something that becomes a self-fulfilling thing. When one person starts thinking it stinks to live somewhere it sort of builds on itself.

In the summertime, MC is a great place. It's not in the winter...... (jab at SS... )

People need to think happy. If they do, it's generally happier. (oh, how profound...)

As a relative newcomer, I have not yet caught that "entitled" attitude (and hope I never do) that you describe here. I have seen evidence of it (union strikers at the OG perhaps). I think we all need to make an effort to bring share/spread some happiness here. It is amazing what affect over time, a smile or a brief helping hand can have. I have had many a smile returned, a friendly chat on the street or in a business and received a kind act in return for an earlier one. If I am ignored or rebuffed, I keep trying and have won over some of the grouchiest of people. I think a good joint project of this forum (for those of us who still live here) is to spread a little positive attitude. We all have different spheres of influence, live in different neighborhoods, work at different businesses and interact with different people. I think we can make a difference if we make an effort. Anyone here up to joining in on this?

I beg to differ with you on the winters in MC - I love them. The snow is beautiful and MC winters provides the best snow sporting activities and ice fishing opportunities in the state of Indiana and rival the best in the midwest. Once again...it's all in how you see things. But that's just me.

Ok call me Pollyanna . The economy in Indiana is better than in many other areas of the country. The economy in MC is not as bad as many are making it out to be. I love the weather and the cloudy days give way to the most beautiful sunny days I have ever viewed.

Since I no longer have school aged children, I cannot testify to the quality of the schools. However there are more school options here than in most small cities of it's size. There are Parochial (Lutheran, Catholic, etc), Prep and Public schools. There are small and large colleges and tech institutes. Per capita, I believe there are more schooling options here, then there might be in Indianapolis (and it has many). We took advantage of both the Indpls public and parochial schools when our children were younger (while earning an income lower than the current median income in MC). I understand that not all people believe they have this option (and some may not). However many of these offer scholarships and grants (or donor sponsors). Research and inquiries can be done to find whether these options are available on a person by person basis.

I do think many people here do not avail themselves of the opportunities that do exist. MC has an excellent public library that offers reference help to the community. Scholarship, grants and other school funding research can be started by a visit to the public library. Personal inquiries can be made at the schools themselves. As an example, (and as you know from other threads), my sorority offers a $750 yearly scholarship opportunity for Indiana students studying various med tech fields. Brown Mackey, Ivy Tech (along with the state universities), and many hospitals all offer training in some of these fields. Yet despite the advertising help of WIMS and the local school counselors, we received no inquiries from this area for this scholarship. Is no one in this area currently enrolled in or planning to enroll in schooling for these fields? (If that is true, are there no students attending the med tech area classes at Brown Mackey or Ivy Tech or Purdue or IU or Notre Dame?)

Indy Transplant (aka Pollyanna) and for those of you who do not know who Pollyanna is, go research it at your MC public library.

Great post IT! (or Polly )

I have been in trading for 10 years now. The first thing they teach you is to get your losing trades off of the books. If I didn't believe we had something valuable in MC, I wouldn't be here!

It just amazes me how many people think this is the worst place going, when the empirical data tells us something completely different.

Oh, I know there are far worse places to live than that area. Trust me, I think I've lived in a few of them!

Again, it goes back to perception. All kidding aside, MC has a lot to offer. As a matter of fact, it's one of those things that if the city actually could get some coat-tails on some of the other things going on, especially in Chicago, the city could just really thrive. It's one of those things from an outsider looking in that I have not ever really understood. I think MC is a hidden gem, if someone / companies would just invest in it.

I know it gets its knocks about school system, etc. However, it only takes 6-7 years, to completely change that... and it starts with the kids and their parents. 6-7 years in a city is not long at all for it to transform itself.

I agree. (but I guess I would also be considered an outsider looking in since I am so new here.)

Your post brought up another thought. I have noticed NW Indiana is always attempting to distance itself from it's own capital city (Indianapolis) and associates itself only with Chicago. I understand that Chicago is closer (although one hour versus less than 3 hours is not that much difference).

Blue Chip caught on to the fact that Indianapolis is less than 3 hours away, does not have a "real" casino and has a million person population (Marion County). They then wisely chose to advertise heavily there and are reaping benefits from it. Of course by advertising in Indianapolis (especially on the tv stations there), they actually reach an even larger central Indiana population.
Many people in Indianapolis had never (and some still never have) heard of Michigan City or they think it is in Michigan. There is very little information available in or around Indianapolis about the great "hidden gem", Michigan City, and the fact that it is located in the state of Indiana.

Just a note: I have my own nickname for Michigan City among my friends in Indianapolis...I call it the North Pole of Indiana. I started that this last winter when I was sending them pictures of the snow and Washington Park with its beautiful lights at Christmas. I have intrigued my friends enough to cause them to visit and more are planning to come this summer.

I wonder if the over-all depression about the city are from some of us who have lived here all our lives and remember a thriving downtown, a cleaner park, more high school spirit, less crime and a sense of community.

I for one see the difference.

I think we connect with Chicago since we're on their time and get their t.v. I love Chicago.

I have to echo Homey's reply.

I remember when the square was closed and people could just walk around. When adults kept their eyes on ALL children and it was not uncommon to be scolded by a stranger when caught misbehaving. (and don't you dare sass or you'd get drug to your parents by your ear!)

When neighbors visited with each other. When Elston & Rogers played against each other and the whole town was painted red, white, blue, and gold. When the parade had real floats and people would be lining Franklin St starting at 8 a.m., but nobody really stayed in their spot because they were too busy walking up and down the street visiting with each other. When the line at DQ stretched down to Greenwood and Al's parking lot was full of cars for DQ.
When EVERYBODY attended high school games. I remember the Red Devil gym being so full during a regular season game that it was often standing room only. When Ames Field was packed to the gills and there were so many people it was standing room only.
What happened?

Thanks Ang...you understand me!

I remember in high school, there was so much school spirit, regular dances that everyone went to. There were teenage hangouts, like Hilltop on the corner by the high school. No cops. No cops were needed. The Barn on the Boulevard who hosted bands from Chicago..and you could walk down the Boulevard and not be scared or attacked.

All the great stores downtown, even at Marquette Mall...really good stores.

The Casino is ok as a draw..but I hate Casino's. I go to some of the festivals...during the day. I don't know what I'm trying to pin point, I guess it's just an overall feeling of being uninfranchised.

From talking about this on-air and some emails that we got. I have to wonder how much if this is influenced by the way different regions interpret and answer questions. People in this area almost seem to brag about how "unhealthy" they are, and I am guilty of this as well. The whole, I'll out drink/out smoke/out eat you type attitude seems to be generally accepted here...but may be looked down upon in most other regions. That would explain why we would be dead last in Healthy Behavior, while being middle of the pack in actual physical health. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if this area ACTUALLY had the worst behaviors when it came to abusing diet/excercise/smoking etc...that we would be feeling the effects in some way or another? Are we being protected by some kinda hidden nutrient in the Lake Michigan water that makes non-healthy behavior keep us healthy? Different regions may be "sneaking cigarettes" or maybe their "closet junk food junkies", because it is viewed as socially unacceptable elsewhere and is tolerated if not applauded here.


Plus I have noticed that if you ask someone from around here what is wrong...they'll tell you what is wrong. I can't help but think that maybe someone from Utah or a similiar place may give an oh gosh, no complaints type answer where as we'll "shoot it to ya straight". People here seem just as happy and as proud of our area as anywhere else I've visited...'course I've pretty much spent my entire life in NW Indiana except for a stint at Purdue...so I may not be the one to give an answer. I just like to think that we have fewer taboos and feel more free/open to complain or "brag about bad behavior" than the rest of the states.

I agree with you. We know that Indiana has one of the highest obesity rates and probably lead the U.S. in social acceptance of smoking. I don't know why this is acceptable to the majority. But look at our restaurants for example. Can we tolerate another McDonalds, Taco Bell or pizza place in town? Maybe so if most think of this as fine dining.

I understand too. I spent all of my growing up years prior to about 16 in Columbus, Indiana and there was (and probably still is) a similar spirit there.....at least for high schoolers. We moved to Indy my mid high school years because my mother had a stroke and needed to be cared for - all of her physical therapy and doctors were out of Methodist Hospital in Indianapolis. Believe me....... moving mid high school can cause an abrupt feeling of disenfranchisement.

Part of the feeling you have comes with growing up and away from the best friends many people make (in HS or college) and the sense of community with belonging to a school.
But that is not all of it. Additional costs come with growing up and feeling for ourselves the weight of financial and parental pressures ( the part of living that our parents shielded from us when we were young) and face it ,,,,the world in general is more financially unstable and more crime ridden than in our youth. Businesses close, governments change, etc. That has happened everywhere, not just MC.

Other things changed along the way too....everyone went to work. Most mothers were not home as much to care for their own children. Most neighbors never had a chance to meet and socialize or were just plain old too tired when they got home from work. My parents were in card clubs with neighbors and went to school events with other parents. When my children were young, the friends I made were with their schoolmates' parents. Once the children all grew up and away, so did the adults.

But the feeling of disenfranchisement is mostly our own fault. It is up to us to create and keep our home base; up to us to find or create activities that we enjoy as adults and along the way find groups of others who enjoy the same things. If you would still enjoy HS sports - go the games, talk to the other adults and meet those you don't know. Become familiar with the players and root for them. (I chose the Pacers as my team, once I moved to Indy as I no longer had a HS team I could relate to. Of course this was in the days when the Pacers actually played as a team and not the Pacers of the last several years. lol ).

I do go to the casino as I love to play cards. But that is just something for me....not for everyone. When I first moved here, the poker room there offered me an opportunity to play cards and meet people. Some of those people I now consider friends. It is even harder for a newcomer to the area, so this was the first thing I tried. I totally understand those who do not like the casino....but there is so much more to do in MC annd there are always things you can do in your own home.

I love board games and cards. I love going to the movies with friends. I love sitting around, enjoying good food and drink and talking about anything. I belong to a non-academic sorority because I like working together with other women for common goals. If anyone out there is interested in any of these things and is feeling disenfranchised, email me and we will see if we can get a group together to do one or some of these things together.

It is not easy, but it never was.

You bring up some good points here.

When we did surveys like this on a nationwide basis in my MBA program, we had to be very careful about "regional bias"... you hit it when you said a question will get one answer in one part of the country and another part of the country will mean exactly the same thing as in place A but say it totally different.

You have to be careful when you write these questions to try and ensure you don't get that bias.

I do think that some places will try and sugar coat their "bads", if you will. People in the Chicago area are completely and sometimes brutally honest.

IndyTransplant, forgive me, and I don't mean to sound harsh... I have spent a lot of time in Chicago, MC, Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, and other little towns in Indiana. NW Indiana has a totally different personality then Indianapolis. There's two reasons for that. NW Indiana is a lot more blue collar. They are a hardened group of people who have been pretty much shafted on industry and other situations (read: steel). Also, Indianapolis honestly is a city that has grown through a lot different means then did Chicago.

In addition, there's no way you can put Indianapolis and Chicago even on the same playing field. The attitudes, people, the way things are done, are completely different. I do think that introduces bias into some of the questions ... as Johnny brought up.

People here in Dallas/Fort Worth are pretty open about things as well, but it's yet even different then Chicago or Indianapolis. They're direct (most of the time) but they tend to twang their answers a bit... (oh what a pun) in that they try to sound sophisticated when they're not. I don't know how else to say that. I'll try to explain it better if it's confusing.

My original premise that MC is someplace that could do some golden things with the proper investment stands. You have to change the attitudes, and it starts with the 10-12 year olds and their parents. You change that, you change a city.

So you don't think we're just protected by some anti-illness forcefield surrounding the city? This seemed like the most telling bit of data to me too; that (collectively) what we say we are doesn't match up to reality. It looks like a negative bias in the reporting.

Still, thinking that a lot of the people I'm interacting with every day think that they're living the *worst life possible* is bumming me out a bit too. Sure, I've noticed some complaining. It's true that some people don't recognize all the good things here that are right before their eyes. But to think that we're basically the most miserable people in the country? I dunno...a lot of people I see around seem relatively happy. Wow. I might just be Little Miss Happypants and extrapolating from my own experience, but it just doesn't seem to add up.

This makes a lot of sense. The world has changed, but it's not just here--it's everywhere. DAR chapters and garden clubs are dying everywhere for lack of time and energy. And people are more mobile now. They don't always stay in the town where they grew up, and thus don't have that connection to the high schools & such of their new home towns. But it's not all bad; there are different forms of community sprouting up in the new world (this forum is an easy example). I wonder also if we remember the good things about the past more clearly than the challenging parts...especially if, as IT/Pollyanna says, we're remembering from the relatively carefree days of childhood.



I'll second this too. If anyone wants to get together for a card game/board game/b-dub trivia/etc night, I'm all ears. Let's attack this misery and anti-community feeling on the home front!

Very good points here. My DS lived in Indy for a few years and found it different from us up here. Now he lives in Chicago. He'll never come back to M.C. except for visits. He believes he has escaped the blue collar mentality here. Now please don't get your panties in an uproar. I'm not diminishing M.C...just trying to relate.
I think M.C. isn't what it use to be and could be so much better than it currently is. With the assets we have, we should be more interesting and vital.

OOOOH I have been misunderstood. . I was not equating Indianapolis and Chicago. They are not equal and not the same. However I disagree with you about the people. The people are not completely different. In general, people are people everywhere. What may be different is the way the people present themselves to outsiders - which goes along with Johnny's post.

However I think many of you do not understand or know Indianapolis well either, which is part of the reason I brought up my thought. Indianapolis is a small town (or bunch of small towns) encompassed in a larger city name. Because of that many of the state's residents (outside Indianapolis) do not understand the real Indianapolis. Most people visit downtown Indianapolis or the north side and equate Indianapolis with that image. But that image is not the majority. I will grant you that Indianapolis over the last twenty five years has done an excellent job of reinventing it's image.....such a good job that you all believe it. You certainly can't fault their ability to market an image.(Which will bring me back to my point later).

Blue collar - Indianapolis? Allisons, Navistar, Chrysler, Ford, Eli Lilly and more than you can name. All companies with workers who were shafted on industry, as you call it. Absolutely a lot of blue collar - particularly the south and west sides of Indianapolis.....and no less hardened than the sturdy folks in NW Indiana. My husband was a blue collar worker all of his life and he is an original Indianapolis native. Unfortunately (or fortunately for the image Indianapolis likes to present to the world) when you read the papers and watch the tv, you do not often see stories of the south or west sides (which encompasses one half of the population).

You might have read one story in the last few years, a story that southsiders followed with interest....the story of David taking on Goliath. David was an old small manufacturing company called Hurst Beans, located on the near southside inconveniently in the way of of a Goliath called Lucas Oil Stadium. Hurst Beans has employed generation after generation of southsiders. It is a family company and a good company to work for. To make a long story short, Hurst Beans and Lucas Oil Stadium ended up in a protracted fight that was in and out of courts and negotiations for quite a while. Based on how the court cases (and the very vocal southside opinion) were going, a compromise was reached. The same compromise that Hurst Beans had offered originally. To southsiders, it was one of the biggest victories in memory. This came after the larger manufacturers like Allisons, Ford and other plants had laid off, closed down or moved out. It was at about the same time as Eli Lilly laying off employees and hiring contract workers instead.

By the same token, Chicago is also a city made up of many small towns. The biggest difference being that it's older, bigger and it's center is much larger than the whole of Indianapolis. They are not the same and I would not want them to be same. I was not suggesting that NW Indiana should more closely relate to Indianapolis. I was suggesting that NW Indiana should not shun, ignore or run from Indianapolis. My main idea was that a place like MC should market itself throughout the state (starting with Indianapolis, as they have the largest market area in the state). After all Chicago already has what Michigan City can offer. However Indianapolis and central/southern Indiana do not. You market your assets most successfully to places who do not share your assets.

That is all.

I get what you're saying. Indianapolis was originally a blure collar town, I would agree. I've spent a lot of time on the south side of town (Beech Grove, Southport, etc.). Those are two neighborhoods/towns that are pretty blue collar even now. And IIRC, the attitude in pockets there are roughly the same as in MC.

Is that to say that blue collar folks have the same tendencies and attitudes because the fabric of what they've done all their life is being ripped apart right before their eyes? It's just a question - one I'm curious if the original survey addresses as you look at the results.

Thank you for understanding. That is a good question also.

The original survey does not denote the same attitude for south side or any area of Indy as it does for MC. That does not mean the attitude does not exist, just that it is diluted.

The congressional districts in Indianapolis cross over too many different areas and types of neighborhoods. We lived on the SE side of Indy prior to moving to MC. Our congressional district included a small part of Indianapolis (Marion County), and parts of Shelby, Hancock and Johnson Counties. That is a pretty diverse congressional district encompassing blue collar, white collar, farmers and many retirees; wealthy, middle class & poor; whites, blacks and in recent years growing populations of hispanic immigrants. The only Indianapolis area congressional district that is comprised only of Marion County residents (and even this was a diverse district) was Julia Carson's (now Andre Carson's) district. The others extend out to include other counties and other areas.

Interesting discussion all around. I hadn't really thought about the angle of people not adjusting to the life style changes that have hit our area in the last two generations. This used to be a total manufacturing and industry town. Now we are a tourist town. That is about as big of a 180 as you can imagine.

There are also a ton of competing things for people's time now compared to even 20 years ago. What did people do with their time? We went to basketball games and were CRAZY (hehe) there. Now, we sit and watch HD tv and play video games along with the internet.

We are in a much more complacent society now then we were in, and how does that add to the line of questioning? I think it depends on what you look at.

It is a good point and may hit the nail on the head. Because of the erosion of the manufacturing and farming base in Indiana, people all over are having to reinvent themselves. Although there may be more opportunities for this in a larger city like Indianapolis or Chicago, there are still opportunities currently here in MC. I also believe that the city, county and state governments (whether Democrat or Republican) really are trying to enhance those opportunities as they can. (The problem with governments of course is the constant bickering over what is the right way to do that. ) Shoot, we even bicker about that in this forum.

MC, as you stated, is now more of a tourist town. IMO, (even in the current economic downturn and maybe even because of the economic downturn), this offers MC residents an expanding opportunity to use that as a basis for reinventing themselves. There are also opportunities in the vast areas of schooling and training offered in and around MC. Training in other areas may also help attract other opportunities to us.

The biggest problem may be, that we, as adults have a harder time adjusting to change or even forcing ourselves to make the personal or career changes needed. But we can do it.
I have been forced into reinventing myself several times over now . I never like doing it and I always think it will be temporary and someday I will return to a previous career. What is that saying...."Nothing is more permanent than something that is temporary" .
The other saying that often comes to mind also fits the concept of having to reinvent ourselves.
"Necessity (or need) is the mother of invention" or in this case re-invention.

To me the scariest part of this area isn't the people who want to fight and argue about what to do, its the amount of people who have completely given up on the process and are doing nothing to try to improve life around them. I might not agree with some of the changes that have been proposed, but I do appreciate the people trying to move the community forward into a better situation. I can't understand the people who are miserable here and complete content to wallow in self-pity about it.

I also missed one thing that I wanted to mention, Chicago and Indy couldn't be more opposite. I have been born and raised with a solid Chicago influence. While I was born and raised in MC except for a few years in Houston from 7-10 years old, and my years of college, my family is originally from Chicago a couple of generations back. The four years I spent in college, I was in Indianapolis a lot, and the region I was in definitely had a solid Indy influence. I didn't like it down there at all. In general, I didn't like the way people who were different were looked at. I had multiple job offers in that area after college, and moved back home to a more comfortable environment. This region of the country is way more honest and open. Some people take it for rudeness, but I wouldn't have it any other way. You almost always know where you stand with people from this part of the country.

AMEN Brother! That is my biggest pet peeve about living where I do is that I never really know where I stand with people. They're so secretive. Why? Just say it man. That's my philosophy.

I am sorry you did not like Indianapolis. I am also sorry you based your opinion on your college years (4) when it sounds like you did not actually live there, but may have gone to college near there?
I lived there for 35 years and lived in several different neighborhoods and sides of town and loved the different experiences and different types of people this allowed me to interact with and learn from. Basically, your feelings about Indianapolis based on your 4 college years are influenced by what years those consisted of and what areas of Indianapolis you spent time in. Where did you go to college, when and what areas of Indy did you visit?

In particular your comment of "In general, I didn't like the way people who were different were looked at." totally surprises me. In what way were you or anyone else different? Indianapolis consists of wealthy, middle class and poor; Whites, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics and Middle Easterners; old, young and middle aged people. Indianapolis is actually influenced by its status as a transplant city - people from all parts of the country and many immigrants have moved to and are now part of Indianapolis.
Your comment above, followed by this comment also confuses me. "I had multiple job offers in that area after college, and moved back home to a more comfortable environment. This region of the country is way more honest and open. Some people take it for rudeness, but I wouldn't have it any other way." It appears that some of that not liking the way "people who were different were looked at" was coming from your own self. You did not like the people in or around Indy that you perceived to be different from you. I really am not trying to be argumentative or rude, but these two statements have me totally confused.

IMO, Indianapolis is one of the largest small towns in America. It has the friendliness of a small town and the advantages of being one of the top twenty largest cities in this country. It is an unusual combination and I loved it.

Indianapolis has gone through some major changes over the last twenty years. It has rightfully shed its original image of Naptown and has expanded its entertainment, culture and business image and is still trying to do so (this at a time when some other cities are decaying and losing their downtowns).

No, Indianapolis is not Chicago and never will be.....it will never be able to offer the amount of entertainment, business and culture that Chicago does. By sheer size alone, it will never offer the amount of diversity Chicago offers. Indianapolis has less than 1 million people and Chicago has more than 5x that.

However (and this is a separate point) I do not think there is one Chicago "influence" nor is there one Indy "influence". Both these cities are made of of neighborhoods with different influences. Knowing several people in both cities who live in many different areas of both cities, you will get opinions based on where they live, work or visit. Even without going into specific neighborhoods, which will bring even more variety of opinion, living on the south side of Chicago is an entirely different experience from living on the north side, lakeshore (east) side or west side. I think, by the way you identify yourself as "southsider", that you already recognize this fact in Chicago. The same is true of Indy. Both cities are diverse in income, race and cultures. They are both cities and they offer the advantages of such, but they are also very different and as a consequence both are very valuable for opportunities and for growing experiences.

Why should there be a comparison between Indianapolis and Chicago? I was not trying to compare them. They are incomparable as they are different and that is the good thing. MC has the advantage of being able to experience the differences and gaining from them. My original point (many posts back) was not that MC should not relate to Chicago........ it should relate to Chicago.....however MC residents should also open their eyes to the benefits of their own capital city occasionally and not shun it or hate it.

I am an Indiana native and proud to be one. If I have one "influence", it is as a Hoosier. I was born in southern Indiana, lived the majority of my life in central Indiana and now am a northern Indiana resident. I have found by living in many Indiana towns, cities and areas and amongst many different original and transplanted residents, that the major Hoosier influence is one of friendliness and openness. The friendliness has been evident everywhere I have been in Indiana. I have also found openness everywhere....it may be expressed slightly differently but it is still overwhelmingly an open and honest attitude statewide. But then again all I can relate is my own experience.

I did forget one more thing I wanted to say also. Your opinion above about the honesty and openness in the NW Indiana/Chicago area has appeared in different wording in many posts by many different people in this forum. Your thoughts above are one example. kapkomet in an earlier post mentioned being " brutally honest" and there are many others, in many areas of the forum, relating the same idea. Since the idea appears so many times, it appears to me to go back to what Johnny Rush was talking about also. He mentioned how proud we seem to be, "bragging" he said, about our poor health habits. Many people also seem to be bragging about an honesty and openness "that some people could take it for rudeness" or "brutal honesty".

I applaud openness and honesty. I appreciate openness and honesty. I consider myself to be an open, honest person, but I hope I am also a friendly, and even sometimes a tactful person. As a good example, this post is not the most tactful I have ever posted, but may well border on the brutal honesty that seems to be most appreciated here. However I do not think brutal honesty is the only way to truly be open and honest. And although I do not myself practice it enough, I do also appreciate a little humility now & then.
Different strokes for different folks.

In response to Ang's "Amen" and lament that she can not tell for sure where she stands with people in her new area. ....to be totally honest and so you all know where you stand with me....I like all of you (from what I know of you through this forum) and I love the debates and honest airing of thoughts, ideas and feelings that is apparent in this forum. Sometimes, possibly, a little more tact could be employed at times, but overall "it is what it is" here and I appreciate it. I hope to meet you all in person some day soon.

Please do not feel you have to respond with how I stand with each of you, my feelings are a little tender today and I am not sure I can take that much brutal honesty.

So far we have managed to have a get together near the board's anniversary (12-11-06) for a "Meet & Greet". There are posts and pics in City Living ( http://www.citybythelake.org/forums/index....c=1847&st=0 ).

I think this year we might try something in warmer weather.

That would be so nice and I look forward to meeting as many of you as possible. Are you coming to town this summer (maybe around your Birthday)?

Actually, it might be a short visit in May.

The first thing that I want to clear up is the "southsider" moniker. I do have family that came from the south side, but I my other side of the family came from up north in some of the German and Polish areas of Chicago. The name is totally a reference to my proud White Sox baseball fandom. It's one of the things that makes me, me, and I use it as an ID a lot.

To be clear, I am as white as white comes, so no the problems were not mine personally. I went to college in North Manchester Indiana, in the mid 90's. I went to college with a bunch of people from Indy. I also spent lots of time in Indy as many of the activities I was involved in took place there. I always got the feeling of small town Indiana in Indianapolis, and in many ways that is a good thing. But in my observations I saw more racism in the few years down there, than I did in my life here. Granted it wasn't towards me specifically, but I saw enough. Being raised in City, I obviously grew up around a lot of people who didn't look like me at all. It never struck me as particularly odd, because it had always been that way. In college that didn't change for me, and I had friends of all races. Some of the things I saw done to them, and heard said to, and about them were just appalling. Not only was some of it just bold, but the overt racism I saw was so ingrained into everyday life, that it didn't seem odd to the majority of people I observed.

In my feelings, I believe that suburban areas tend to take on many characteristics of moods of their bigger urban area. There is definitely a feel to Chicago and its suburbs that I haven't seen anywhere else in the country. I felt something different in Indy. Granted there are different feelings in specific areas and neighborhoods of Chicago, but the city has its own personality that is completely unique. What is socially acceptable is an area, is a part of that personality. In the Chicago area, racism isn't an accepted part of life for most because most people don't come from homo genus areas, like people in the Indianapolis area do. There are still good old fashioned Klan towns within less than an hours driving distance of Indy. I don't think you can say that up here.

Maybe it was just bad experiences, maybe it has changed, but I just didn't like the feeling of that area. The racism really, really bothered me.

There are some people who think anyone south of 39 is either a hick or a racist

Isn't there a big Klan community around Bloomington? I remember when my daughter went to IU and spoke about those areas.

I believe the town she was talking about was Martinsville.

I think the folks around here are pretty tolerant. I'm happy about that.

That info helps some. ....North Manchester Indiana is not close to Indianapolis, and I still do not know where you visited in Indianapolis. Are you saying these Indianapolis residents you went to school with had racist attitudes?

Indianapolis is not even close to a "homo genus" community nor are there an overwhelming number of "homo genus" neighborhoods.

I also grew up with a lot of people who do not look like me (both racially, culturally and heightwise ). Having spent 35 years in Indy, I do not think and never felt that racism is an OVERALL attitude there. I myself am also white, but attended a Black Lutheran church and also had many black friends all my life (from when I lived in Columbus through when I lived in Indy). I did live in an area for a time that was more largely populated by whites (but there were some Blacks, Indians, Hispanics and others there also), but in that area you were more likely to not be accepted because you were a newbie (not a 3-5 generation area resident) than due to your race or any other prejudice. In fact you got that attitude from the 3-5 generation minority residents in the area also. (I have felt a little of that "newbie" prejudice moving here to MC also).

That is not to say that there are not neighborhoods that are populated more heavily with people who have personal racist attitudes. There certainly are....there are some neighborhoods that are heavily white that have people with racist attitudes towards blacks, as well as some neighborhoods that are heavily black that have some racist attitude towards whites (and Hispanics now). You will not convince me that some of those neighborhoods do not also exist in areas of Chicago nor can you convince me that there are no racist people in Chicago. I have my own personal experiences in Chicago and from Chicago residents to the contrary. (There are racist people everywhere and people with other prejudices also).

However again I do not think that racism is the majority attitude in Indianapolis (or Chicago) For the most part, Indianapolis is well integrated (although again there are pockets). Most parts of Indy, and to an even greater extent downtown Indianapolis where most visitors go, are so diverse racially, culturally, age and income wise and all have been peacefully living together for years and interacting socially, not just keeping to themselves. Most of the near suburban areas are also diverse and fairly harmonious (they are more likely to fight over kids than race). Actually some of the neighborhoods here in MC do not seem to be as diverse.

There are areas that some people include in the Indianapolis (metro) area (other counties) that are not as harmonious as Indy. But those are not Indianapolis and are not included in Indianapolis population nor do they pay Indianapolis or Marion County taxes. Some of the surrounding counties are made up of people who were of that mind in the first place (that attitude did not stem from Indianapolis - many of those areas were founded even prior to Indianapolis) and were further populated by people in the "white flight" category. There were also people of all races who moved out of Marion County/Indianapolis to the north who were of the "income flight" category (preferring only to socialize with people of their upper income level). Most of us who remained in Indianapolis, were more than happy to see those taking flight away from Indianapolis, go.... and don't let the door hit them on the behind on the way out.
BTW, NW Indiana has had in the past it's own white and income flight (flight out of Gary and other areas into Merrillvillle and Valparaiso for example). Racism (and many other forms of prejudice) exist and they still exist everywhere (and IMO they will exist as long as human beings exist since these attitudes are often transferred down and over). Great strides have been made, but I do not know if it will ever be eradicated.

My request is this - don't ascribe a racist attitude to an entire population from encountering the personal prejudices or attitudes of some of the residents. Personally how would we all feel if someone visits here and then goes home to tell everyone that Michigan City is a bunch of troublemaking union people. Don't laugh....I have already had to defend the population of MC based on errant information.

and FYI, I have seen, heard, witnessed and personally been exposed to some of those same racist attitudes you ascribe to Indianapolis right here in MC ....and sorry - but also in Chicago) ,,,,the difference is I attributed those occasions as that person or those particular people's personal prejudices and did not automatically think that it was the prevailing attitude of the city.

I just wanted to make another comment or two. I love a good debate, can you tell .

You also said "In my feelings, I believe that suburban areas tend to take on many characteristics of moods of their bigger urban area. There is definitely a feel to Chicago and its suburbs that I haven't seen anywhere else in the country."

I cannot agree with that theory (even for some of the Chicago suburbs). In some cases, suburbs are formed in direct reaction to the urban area they are closest to. They still want to be close to the jobs and other amenities a big city offers, but do not want to live like the big city residents or sometimes with some of the big city residents.

and finally you said " There is definitely a feel to Chicago and its suburbs that I haven't seen anywhere else in the country........... In the Chicago area, racism isn't an accepted part of life for most because most people don't come from homo genus areas."

Unfortunately you, I and most adults know that racism exists and therefore in one way, it is an accepted part of life. But I do not believe acting out of racism is an acceptable way of life in most areas of this country and it certainly is not an acceptable way of life for most Indianapolis residents. I also know (from personal experience) that Chicago is not exempt from racism.

I can tell you a tale of one of the most non-homo genus areas of this country. It is called Montgomery County, Maryland. You may have heard of it....they had sniper attacks there several years ago that became an extremely big national news story. (My daughter happened to live there at that time.....but that is another story ). Montgomery County is one of the most culturally, racially and income diverse areas of the entire USA. There are over 120 separate languages spoken in the Montgomery County public schools and many of their families do not speak English at all. I would not say racism is an accepted way of life there and many residents are horrified by it, but it exists and exists openly.

"Homo genus" areas do not necessarily begat racism and "non-homo genus areas" are not necessarily exempted from it or immune to it.
Prejudices are personal and there are people everywhere.

Many people on the east and west coasts (and many areas in between) believe ALL of Indiana residents are hicks. Many Indiana residents think ALL of Kentucky's residents are hicks. Many people throughout the country think ALL of Arkansas residents are hicks and according to the national news media during the campaign, evidently President Obama also thought central Pennsylvania residents (or small town America) cling to their guns and their Bibles. We all have our own prejudices.

I believe it is true that Martinsville early on had a strong base of KKK members. In the 1920's it had a definite stronghold and presence. However even Martinsville is not all white anymore and I would not say that all or even a majority of it's current residents would find that acceptable behavior now.

EDIT: I edited this to add the comment that personal experiences and even news reports during the last Presidential campaign could lead one to the conclusion that in the Martinsville of today, sexism and ageism may be much larger issues there now than racism. During this last campaign when national news reporters went to Martinsville (because of their early reputation of being a KKK town), the overwhelming response from the "man" on the street was leaning toward Obama.....because McCain was too old and Clinton is a woman.

This may be the wrong area to post this, but I am posting this here partially because of the back and forth posts between Southsider and I about Chicago and Indianapolis. It is no surprise that we both love the areas where we have spent so much of our lives and that as insiders (Southsider in Chicago and myself in Indianapolis), we would have different viewpoints of them based on our experiences.

That is exactly what makes this forum so great. It allows all of us to state and defend our viewpoints and also to learn something from others' viewpoints. I am writing this to thank Southsider and all of you for creating and populating this forum. What a wonderful opportunity this is to truly get to know people before you have ever seen them in person.

I am really looking forward to meeting you all in person.

Please check the thread on Group Nights and let's see if we can arrange some fun get togethers so I can meet you all sooner rather than later.....and don't forget that Ang may also be here soon - sometime in May, I think whe said.