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Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=45954.58

QUOTE
Trails And Greenways High Up In Marquette Plan

Alaric DeArment
The News-Dispatch

Several members of the public, along with government officials, gathered at the Senior Center in Washington Park Thursday night for the first of a series of town hall meetings throughout Northwest Indiana to discuss the second phase of the Northwestern Indiana Regional Planning Commission's Marquette Plan.

The purpose of the plan, NIRPC Executive Director John Swanson said, was to establish a long-range vision for protecting and enhancing shoreline areas.

"It looks at the value of the lakefront communities and areas as assets for the region and looks at ways to protect and enhance those assets," Swanson said.

A major part of the plan involves developing trails and greenways in the region.

"I would just like to see the Marquette Plan advance so 20 years down the line we have a bike trail extending from Chicago to the Michigan state line," NIRPC commissioner and Trail Creek Town Councilman Ron Lombard said.

"I think the biggest issue we've heard is the balance between ecology and development," said Gregg Calpino, a member of NIRPC's consulting team and principal at Chicago-based urban planning firm JJR LLC. "How heavily the human hand touches that is always an issue."

Goals of the plan include recapturing 75 percent of shoreline for public access, according to a slideshow presentation that Calpino and fellow JJR consultant Vishal Kundra gave. The presentation emphasized that the goal was not to grab land, displace people or increase taxes.

"This is not to expand the national park and take over every neighborhood in Northwest Indiana," Calpino said in the presentation. "The goal is to find a balance."

The presentation included a short video that showed what visitors to Michigan City might see upon arrival: underdeveloped properties, lack of signs to indicate they had arrived and a power plant dominating the skyline. This, Calpino said, made it look as though Michigan City "doesn't look like a place to visit or live."

"One solution is signage," Kundra said. "Tell people about it."

With that, the meeting opened to members of the community to voice their concerns. The South Shore Line and the location of the station on 11th Street figured prominently in the discussion.

"This is the home of the South Shore railroad and we have the worst station on the line," retired Michigan City resident Dale Engquist said. "That crummy little thing downtown is an abomination. It ought to bring you closer to where people want to go, which is farther north."

Receiving criticism and suggestions from the public, however, were the purpose of the meeting.

"This is more of a public visioning process where we're using members of the public as resources," Swanson said.



Roger Kaputnik
They are speaking my language as far as public access goes.
RexKickass
Aren't they closing 11th Street station this year?
Roger Kaputnik
11th is closing to repave, but I have not heard about the station itself closing permanently.
Southsider2k12
I haven't heard anything either, and that is where I catch the train everyday. I know they just built a new $30K shelter so I can't imagine them closing down now.
Max Main
does the parks dept have more info on the trails plan and how it connects tothe mc plan?
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=52037.99

QUOTE
Marquette Plan A Matter Of Balance
About 30 attend meeting to discuss future of lakefront.

Deborah Sederberg
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - It's a matter of balance, planners said about Marquette Plan Phase 2 on Wednesday at Michigan City Senior Center.

About 30 people attended the event, fewer than the numbers at Tuesday's meeting in Chesterton.

Several in attendance suggested that, what with the series of North End planning meetings with Andrews University students and professors, perhaps Michigan City residents are feeling planned out.

The plan was conceived by U.S. Rep Pete Visclosky, (D-Merrillville.) It was and is seen as a system of preserving Indiana's Lake Michigan shoreline as much as possible, even in the face of heavy industry.

The Chesterton meeting was to discuss the Indiana lakefront from Lake County to the Burns Waterway, while Wednesday's event was to talk about the lakefront from the Burns Waterway to the Michigan state line.

Hosted by the Northwest Indiana Regional Planning Commission, the meetings in Porter and La Porte County were designed to get public comment.

NIRPC Executive Director John Swanson turned most of the meeting over to Gregg Calpino, principal and project firm of JJR Parks and Recreation in Chicago.

There were three visions for the lakefront, one leaning toward conservation issues, one to commercial development and one toward community.

In the end, he said, the plan likely will borrow from all three concerns.

Discussion was wide ranging, with some about transportation issues, especially the South Shore. Others wanted to talk about visitors while almost everyone wanted to talk about clean water issues.

Jane Smith, owner of the Feallock House bed and breakfast, said she had guests during the summer who could not swim in the lake several times because bacteria levels were too high.

Calpino suggested one solution might be for smaller cities and towns to work together on sewage treatment matters.

In meeting with city and town officials and others about the plan, Calpino said the age-old tension between visitors and residents shows no sign of dying.

The beauty of the Marquette Plan, he said, is that there is room for communities that welcome visitors and for those that would rather have their privacy.

"Portage, Chesterton and Michigan City have emerged as communities embracing tourism," he said. Each has a convenient exit from Interstate 94 and has or is working on getting effective signage directing visitors to attractions.

What is needed, he said, is a visitor management plan for the region. The idea would be to help tourists to find the spots they are seeking while sparing them the confusion of wandering aimlessly through residential areas.

"This plan recognizes individual rights," he noted.

Corasue Nicholas, Ogden Dunes, said she and her husband moved to the area from Chicago seven years ago, primarily because they enjoy hiking in the dunes and watching wildlife, including birds.

She said Portage and Chesterton are growing quickly, "but I don't think they know what they're doing."

She said she would emphasize the conservation aspect the plan.



Contact Deborah Sederberg at dsederberg@thenewsdispatch.com.
mcstumper
QUOTE(southsider2k7 @ Jun 18 2007, 11:54 AM) *


QUOTE
With that, the meeting opened to members of the community to voice their concerns. The South Shore Line and the location of the station on 11th Street figured prominently in the discussion.

"This is the home of the South Shore railroad and we have the worst station on the line," retired Michigan City resident Dale Engquist said. "That crummy little thing downtown is an abomination. It ought to bring you closer to where people want to go, which is farther north."


Ugh, these people just don't get it, do they? The South Shore exists to give us access, as commuters, to the Loop, not vice-versa. Chicagoans aren't going to drive to the Loop and pay $28 for parking so that they can get on a train that will take an hour and 45 minutes to get to Michigan City (Paying $13 round trip in the process). If the Loop was like Manhattan, maybe it would make sense. But its not, so it doesn't.

Move it south, or don't move it at all.
Southsider2k12
QUOTE(mcstumper @ Sep 27 2007, 03:50 PM) *

Ugh, these people just don't get it, do they? The South Shore exists to give us access, as commuters, to the Loop, not vice-versa. Chicagoans aren't going to drive to the Loop and pay $28 for parking so that they can get on a train that will take an hour and 45 minutes to get to Michigan City (Paying $13 round trip in the process). If the Loop was like Manhattan, maybe it would make sense. But its not, so it doesn't.

Move it south, or don't move it at all.


Riding the train everyday to work and back, there is a decent amount of people who ride the train out there. Granted it is no where near the volume of people that go into Chicago for tourism, but there are a few. Some people come out to Blue Chip, a few to the Lake, and some to the Mall. The Mall has taken a big hit with the new outlet open in Aurora, as that was one of the big areas LHP drew people from.
Roger Kaputnik
mcstumper has a point here. I suspect that there are very few daytrippers to MC via the CSS&SB. Where does he propose the station would be?
Southsider2k12
I know it isn't cost effecient, but I would love someone to restore that building. I love the old station.
JHeath
QUOTE(mcstumper @ Sep 27 2007, 03:50 PM) *

Ugh, these people just don't get it, do they? The South Shore exists to give us access, as commuters, to the Loop, not vice-versa. Chicagoans aren't going to drive to the Loop and pay $28 for parking so that they can get on a train that will take an hour and 45 minutes to get to Michigan City (Paying $13 round trip in the process). If the Loop was like Manhattan, maybe it would make sense. But its not, so it doesn't.

Move it south, or don't move it at all.



If you move the station south, you lose proximity to the "Golden Triangle", which is what we've been using to draw tourists into our area. Instead of moving the station, why not just restore the buidling on 11th St.?
Personally, I think having the tracks in the middle of 11th St also add character to the line and to our City.
But that's just my opinion...
Ang
QUOTE(JHeath @ Sep 28 2007, 08:28 AM) *

If you move the station south, you lose proximity to the "Golden Triangle", which is what we've been using to draw tourists into our area. Instead of moving the station, why not just restore the buidling on 11th St.?
Personally, I think having the tracks in the middle of 11th St also add character to the line and to our City.
But that's just my opinion...



I'm with Jenny. When I tell people that a train runs down the middle of the road in my hometown, they are awed. And SSder is right about the station. I was in there before the building closed and it is absolutely gorgeous inside. Or was anyway. I think it should be restored and the tracks left right where they are. It would help the north end tremendously
Southsider2k12
http://www.post-trib.com/news/579013,mcmarquette.article

QUOTE
Residents have many ideas for Marquette Plan

September 28, 2007
BY CHARLES M. BARTHOLOMEW Post-Tribune correspondent

MICHIGAN CITY -- Regional planning officials are counting as a success this week's pair of public meetings on a unified development plan for the Indiana shore of Lake Michigan.
Almost 100 people attended the Tuesday meeting in Chesterton and the Wednesday meeting in Michigan City to hear consultants for the Northwestern Indiana Regional Planning Commission explain "Marquette 2," the phase of U.S. Rep. Peter Visclosky's vision for the lake shore extending from the Port of Indiana to the Michigan state line and including 13 cities and towns in Porter and LaPorte counties.

The plan, due to be completed by the end of this year, will be a set of recommendations for increasing access to the lake for visitors and improving the quality of life for residents, building on the first phase that was completed last year and covers the area from Whiting to Portage. Five meetings on Marquette 2 were held in June.

"The meetings have all been very, very constructive," John Swanson, NIRPC executive director, said.

The majority of the 30 people who came to the Senior Center in Washington Park on Wednesday night were from Michigan City and adjacent towns.

Project manager Greg Calpino of JJR in Chicago said the final product will be a mix of scenarios favoring either conservation, commerce or communities.

Many comments concerned projects that would be part of the commerce scenario, principally relocating the South Shore tracks closer to the lake and building a new Michigan City train station.

"I'm hearing tonight that the train station is an absolutely critical component of this plan," Calpino said, adding that picking a site for it would come later.

Corasue Nichols of Ogden Dunes said turning U.S. 12 into a scenic corridor is "a very positive idea," but she questioned whether widening the road for bike lanes was needed with the Calumet Trail running parallel to it.

Michigan City Councilwoman Patricia Boy was one of several who said however desirable development for residents or visitors was, conservation issues, particularly Lake Michigan's water quality, must be addressed first.

"Once you do that, everything else will follow," she said.

"People come all the way from Texas and can't go in the water. We have no Jetskis, no parasails, no boats for them to go out onto the lake. There's nothing for them to do," Marcia Averitt of Michigan City said.

Swanson said this week's input will be used to develop three sets of recommendations that will be presented at public meetings some time in November.

He said NIRPC will continue to take comments on the Marquette 2 Plan at its Web site www.nirpc.org

mcstumper
QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Sep 28 2007, 08:18 AM) *

mcstumper has a point here. I suspect that there are very few daytrippers to MC via the CSS&SB. Where does he propose the station would be?


One of two places. If the parking is sufficient, I would put it next to the MCAS Physical Plant building (whatever its called) just south of Ames Field. If not there, I would put it west of Ohio St., just north of the CSX tracks. The interesting thing about the second location is that it is very near the abandoned Monon Railroad right-of-way. If you were truly concerned about day-trippers, you could build a trolley line that would start at the new South Shore station, run north on the Monon ROW then parallel to the Amtrak line all the way up to the current train depot (Swingbellies). This trolley line would run right next to the Lighthouse Mall, so you could theoretically build a mini-station for dropping people off there. The trolley could be seasonal, operating just on weekends or holidays.
Southsider2k12
FWIW, NICTD favors a move to the south, if they do indeed reroute the South Shore tracks.

http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=47843.67

QUOTE
NICTD: Send 11th St. Tracks South

Amanda Haverstick
The News-Dispatch

CHESTERTON - Should the time come for the South Shore tracks on 11th Street to move, they likely will head south.

Gerald Hanas, Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District general manager, said a goal is to reduce travel time, and getting through Michigan City quicker helps achieve that.

"One of the big elephants in the room ... is the fact that we're running on the streets of Michigan City," Hanas said. "That's a big impediment to South Shore and Michigan City traffic."

Hanas reiterated to NICTD's board Friday that he believes a substantial amount of time can be cut by rerouting the track off 11th Street.

"It's a relic of the old interurban days where we went through the streets of Gary, through the streets of East Chicago and Hammond and for that matter South Bend," NICTD spokesman John Parsons said. "This is the last remaining piece we have. It's an extremely expensive piece of railroad to maintain, probably the most expensive two miles in our system."

Parsons said the tracks, ties and ballasts are buried under the street.

"Every so often, we have to go through and rip it all out and replace it," Parsons said. "Periodically, we have to go in, even after these massive excavation projects, and do detailed work later on. It really reduces the asphalt life Michigan City experiences with their street."

NICTD and Michigan City studied north and south alternatives to reroute the track.

"The north alternative we looked at was getting on the old Nickel Plate (railroad), which is owned by the SouthShore Freight," Parsons said.

A swing bridge along the route that crosses Trail Creek presents a fatal flaw in trying to use the northern route. One of the big issues, he said, is that the South Shore's maintenance and storage facilities are to the east of the swing bridge.

"If there's any problem with that swing bridge," Parsons said, "we don't have a rush hour in the morning."

Another proposal, he said, has been to build a bridge over Trail Creek.

"Because the freight service will be with us and will require a 2 percent grade, we will have to start our bridge ... going over U.S. 12. We'd probably be going through (downtown) Michigan City at 30 feet in the air, coming down probably at Lincoln Yard," Parsons said. "That was discounted early on in favor of a southern (route)."

Parsons said a southerly alignment would take the South Shore along the CSX tracks and NIPSCO utility corridor.

"We would join the South Shore at the cinder block company on U.S. 12 near the county line," he said.

NICTD and CSX would segregate operations with the South Shore running north of the CSX tracks.

New station facilities, Parsons said, will be located by Franklin Street near Ames Field.

"It would give us the opportunity to develop a pretty attractive station," Parsons said. "We have very limited parking in downtown Michigan City. At 11th Street, there are only 30 spaces and around 200 spaces at Carroll Avenue."

Parsons said a new station could offer 400 spaces.

The move south, Parsons said, would improve operating time and reduce the number of grade crossings from 32 to 17. The cost of such a project would range between $60 and $80 million.

q

Contact Amanda Haverstick at ahaverstick@thenewsdispatch.com.
Southsider2k12
I'll admit, I am a fan of this letter... More doing, less planning. It also bothers me if the stuff about politicians buying land is true. That is kind of conflict of interest, don't you think?

http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=48507.66

QUOTE
City Hears Lots Of Plans, But Just Needs To Get Moving
In response to the Marquette Plan, I am amazed why people continue to study the lakes and access to them. The Andrews University team and their charette was to tell the city what we already know and at a cost to whom? Now I read about the Marquette Plan that recently acquired a $1 million grant to hire a consulting firm to discuss access to Lake Michigan. What happened to Ron Meer's resolution? It was submitted and passed through our City Council proposing the same thing.

I have spent a lot of time watching and listening to these plans. Why can't this be done? Access to the old West Beach can be done at little to not cost. Why are the greedy planners and leaders of this town buying up more land on the North Side/West Side? To capitalize on the access? I have spoken with heads of the Economic Development committee and City Council members, both having members buying land.

Let's get these plans and studies that don't move forward off the chalk board and in motion before the land grabbers buy it all. We the people of Michigan City want access to the West Beach area. This could be the greatest financial boom in Michigan City to target small businesses and residents alike, not just the big money like the riverboat and Lighthouse Place. Come on, people, speak up before we don't have anything left. Feel free to contact me.

West Side businessman and homeowner,

Tony Childers

Michigan City

tonysoutboard@adsnet.com or 874-4086
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=55121.34

QUOTE
West Side Needs Access To The Lake
Tony Childers is correct on many points ["City hears lots of plans, just needs to get moving," Saturday]. His strongest point is that we keep repeating the same studies, and essentially we're being told the same thing at additional cost and time.

Another important point he makes isthe need for access to Lake Michigan from the West Side of Michigan City. This can be successfully accomplished if the city, NIPSCO and the railroads involved expedite access in a secured manner for all parties.

The West Side of Michigan City and all Michigan City residents can no longer afford to be restricted from the primary asset of our area. Having access to Lake Michigan is what brings value to the area and potentially improves the quality of life.

It's time to implement what we know will help improve our community.

Ron Meer, Councilman

Third Ward

Michigan City
JHeath
laugh.gif Do we get a cut of the grant for what we already know?
It's not that difficult...really. We need better access to the lakefront, from all angles.
Use the money from private developers to make it happen....instead of raising taxes for the rest of us.
Dave
QUOTE
The move south, Parsons said, would improve operating time and reduce the number of grade crossings from 32 to 17. The cost of such a project would range between $60 and $80 million.


I can believe that the maintainance of 11th street is the highest for any two miles of NICTD track (though I'd still like to see the actual numbers), but I have to wonder how many years is it going to take NICTD to save $60 million by making this move. Does anyone think they spend a million bucks a year on 11th street? Give me $60 million, I can give you a million a year return on that by buying savings bonds, for crying out loud. Heck, take the $60 million, buy every house along 11th street clear though town, close the street, build a train level platform, close half the grade crossings, repurchase the old train station and rehab it, build a parking garage on the same block as the station, and give me the $30 million that's left over.

I am going to get a reputation on here as a conspiracy theorist, I'm afraid. However, I want you all to know I believe Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK, we really did land on the moon, and the TrlLateral Commission is a glorified social club. However, I once again have to wonder what the hidden agenda is about moving the train station from where it is on 11th street, considering the outrageous costs involved in doing so and the simple fact that it seems to be working where it has been for the past 100 years.
Ang
Obviously people don't understand the meaning of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Southsider2k12
The only thing I don't understand is what happens to the shops? They still need a place to store, fix, and re-arrange trains. If they reroute that far south, how do they get to the shops?
Dave
I suppose that's part of why it's supposed to cost so much. If they move the station to Ame's Field, they have to get the trains back to the Carroll St. facility. From what I can see on Google Earth mapping, they would have to lay about a mile of track east of the Beverly Shores station to get to an existing rail line, which would take them past Ame's Field, and then there would have to be some kind of addition near the Carroll St. facility to get them back to the yards.

I still think my idea would work better and be cheaper. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
Roger Kaputnik
Sixty mill would go FAR in urban renewal along the tracks. Someone wants to move the tracks, and we need to find out who and what interest that person or people have along the right of way.
Southsider2k12
QUOTE(Dave @ Oct 4 2007, 12:24 PM) *

I suppose that's part of why it's supposed to cost so much. If they move the station to Ame's Field, they have to get the trains back to the Carroll St. facility. From what I can see on Google Earth mapping, they would have to lay about a mile of track east of the Beverly Shores station to get to an existing rail line, which would take them past Ame's Field, and then there would have to be some kind of addition near the Carroll St. facility to get them back to the yards.

I still think my idea would work better and be cheaper. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.


Unless a part of the $60-80 million cost is a new, state of the art facility for the shops, then it would make a little more sense.
Southsider2k12
QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Oct 5 2007, 09:09 AM) *

Sixty mill would go FAR in urban renewal along the tracks. Someone wants to move the tracks, and we need to find out who and what interest that person or people have along the right of way.


If someone was really willing to poor that kind of money into the northside, we could fix a lot of things. We could get the streets and traffic flow fixed, we could get the views fixed, and we could turn that area into the picture postcard that it used to be.
Roger Kaputnik
A fourth of that money would be significant.
mcstumper
QUOTE(Dave @ Oct 4 2007, 12:24 PM) *

I suppose that's part of why it's supposed to cost so much. If they move the station to Ame's Field, they have to get the trains back to the Carroll St. facility. From what I can see on Google Earth mapping, they would have to lay about a mile of track east of the Beverly Shores station to get to an existing rail line, which would take them past Ame's Field, and then there would have to be some kind of addition near the Carroll St. facility to get them back to the yards.

I still think my idea would work better and be cheaper. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.



The South Shore has an existing interchange with CSX east of Michigan City that could be used. However they would have to back the trains into and out of the shops and then onto the main line. I imagine that they would try to acquire the property on the southwest corner of the current crossing and build a spur there for interchange.
Dave
QUOTE(mcstumper @ Oct 8 2007, 11:19 PM) *

The South Shore has an existing interchange with CSX east of Michigan City that could be used. However they would have to back the trains into and out of the shops and then onto the main line. I imagine that they would try to acquire the property on the southwest corner of the current crossing and build a spur there for interchange.


I saw that, the interchange is east of the Carroll St. yards, so I assume they wouldn't want to do a switchback with every train. What would a switchback do to all that time they are claiming they will save by moving from 11th street?

Of course, maybe they would just close the Carroll street passenger facility altogether. Someone I know speculates that the whole motivation for moving the train line is to get it out of the North End "Ghetto" (where I happen to live, thankyouverymuch) to where the folks on the south end of town would feel more comfortable using it. I'd like to see the News Dispatch do a little investigative reporting, to see if anyone involved in the decision making process has been purchasing real estate on or near the proposed new route.

Southsider2k12
QUOTE(Dave @ Oct 9 2007, 02:15 AM) *

I saw that, the interchange is east of the Carroll St. yards, so I assume they wouldn't want to do a switchback with every train. What would a switchback do to all that time they are claiming they will save by moving from 11th street?

Of course, maybe they would just close the Carroll street passenger facility altogether. Someone I know speculates that the whole motivation for moving the train line is to get it out of the North End "Ghetto" (where I happen to live, thankyouverymuch) to where the folks on the south end of town would feel more comfortable using it. I'd like to see the News Dispatch do a little investigative reporting, to see if anyone involved in the decision making process has been purchasing real estate on or near the proposed new route.


I think you hit on on something important here, what exactly is our motivation and our goals if we move the tracks.

Is our goal to improve the quality of life for our citizens by making the commute to work/Chicago a little bit shorter, or is it to improve the commute to attract tourists to Michigan City? I think the answer tells us whether we want to move the tracks north or south. If we decide we want to make things attractive to come out here, we need to move the tracks north into the tourism triangle of the beach, the mall, and the boat. Tourists really aren't going to care about the southend of town, as they can get that stuff anywhere else. They want what makes MC unique. Now if we are looking at making life easier for ourselves, then we look at moving the tracks south. One thing to remember, is if the goal is to save time, its not like this will make the trip THAT much shorter. The SS trains are only allowed a top speed of 79mph. They already take 1 hour and 20 minutes to get to the Chesterton stop. My highly unscientific guess, based on about 9 years of commuting on the SS, is that we could save a little less than 5 minutes for people used to getting off at 11th street, and about 10 for those used to boarding at Carroll. That is a lot of investment for a little amount of time. I would say we would get a much better return on our dollars if we tried to get people directly into the tourist triangle, making it as easy as possible for people to visit MC. For those going into Chicago, this project really wouldn't make any dissernable differences in their regular day.
Dave
Well, I would agree that it the train is going to be moved, moving it north males a lot more sense than moving it south.

However, agreeing again, moving it either way is going to make only a difference of a few minutes in commuting time, and the simple fact of the matter is that no one rides the South Shore for speed, they ride it for economy. If I was concerned with speed, I'd drive, and cut 30 minutes off the commuting time. Being concerned with ecomony, I ride the train and save about 50% in cost. Is anyone going to ride the train if NICTD has to double fares in order to pay for moving the tracks?

I was musing the other day about a high speed commuter boat. How fast could one make the 38 mile run from MC to Navy Pier? Probably a topic for another thread.
Southsider2k12
Cost is the #1 reason I ride the train, no doubt about it. #2 would be the fact that I don't see as many idiotic commuters as I do idiotic drivers, plus the ones I do see are much more harmess.

As for the boat idea, it came about a year ago, someone was talking about running it out of Gary I believe. The idea never was discussed again as far as I know. I am guessing costs were the big problem.
JHeath
Running the commuter boat in the winter months would be dangerous for many reasons. I'm guesing that idea never went anywhere because it would have to be seasonal...and a large enough watercraft to handle the waves on days when it's really nasty weather during the rest of the year.
Ang
And the insurance premiums would be through the roof to operate a high speed commuter boat-especially that distance. For one, I'm sure they'd be hard pressed to find a company willing to write such a risk. For two, the chances of a loss are increased due to silly mishaps and carelessness of passengers. For three, Lake Michigan is extremely unpredictable.
While it's a nice idea in theory, I don't think it would work very well. Probably be best to have a couple friends commute together across the lake in a private boat and share the cost of fuel.
Roger Kaputnik
All in all, it seems that the best plan would be to keep the CSS&SB on 11th, and make the station on 11th a real station. That could be a nice anchor to the downtown Franklin St area.
mcstumper
QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Oct 9 2007, 01:44 PM) *

All in all, it seems that the best plan would be to keep the CSS&SB on 11th, and make the station on 11th a real station. That could be a nice anchor to the downtown Franklin St area.


Except:
a) no parking
cool.gif slower trains
c) no place to build a boarding platform (which I am surprised isn't required under the ADA).
Southsider2k12
QUOTE(mcstumper @ Oct 10 2007, 04:53 PM) *

Except:
a) no parking
cool.gif slower trains
c) no place to build a boarding platform (which I am surprised isn't required under the ADA).


On the third point, I believe the old stations are grandfathered in. All of the stations that have been improved all have platformed.
Dave
QUOTE(mcstumper @ Oct 10 2007, 04:53 PM) *

Except:
a) no parking
B) slower trains
c) no place to build a boarding platform (which I am surprised isn't required under the ADA).


a) If NICTD would use a few hundred thousand dollars of that $60 million to buy the vacant lot and the two houses on the same block as the train station and/or the dry cleaners on that block (and this would be a legitimate use of eminant domain if the owners were unwilling to sell, IMHO), I could see enough space there for upwards of 100 parking spaces, if not 200 spaces.

b) How much additional time is the train going to take going the two miles or so further if they move it to a new southern route past Ames Field? I doubt the train would be able to go appreciably faster on the southern route, as it is still going to be going through town at street level.

c) All that would be required for a boarding platform at the 11th street station would be closing 11th street for westbound traffic between Franklin and Pine, and building the platform where the westbound lane currently is.
JHeath
QUOTE(Dave @ Oct 10 2007, 11:19 PM) *

c) All that would be required for a boarding platform at the 11th street station would be closing 11th street for westbound traffic between Franklin and Pine, and building the platform where the westbound lane currently is.

With all of the complaining that people already do about the "confusing" traffic patterns in the north end of town, this would not be feasible.
Ang
A three level parking garage on the corner of Franklin and Pine would do fine.
Roger Kaputnik
Are the existing lots full? What about all the space on the SW block at the intersection of Franklin and 11th?
Southsider2k12
QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Oct 11 2007, 02:46 PM) *

Are the existing lots full? What about all the space on the SW block at the intersection of Franklin and 11th?


The SW lot belongs to that interior place that is in the old tire place. The NW lot is also private for the couple of businesses that are next to the old trainstation. The lot behind those buildings and where the stop is now are always filled up.
Ang
QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Oct 11 2007, 01:46 PM) *

Are the existing lots full? What about all the space on the SW block at the intersection of Franklin and 11th?


That lot belongs to John Tunstall-he who owns Studio II
mcstumper
There seems to be a misconception that if we don't move the South Shore south, we would save taxpayers $60 million.

To that I say, "HA!"

NICTD is essentially a government entity with deep roots in Lake and Porter Counties. Therefore, if the $60 million doesn't get spent here, it will get spent there. Why don't we sit here and brainstorm some more ways to meet all of our needs with the existing route, so that Valparaiso or Munster can have another $59 million to spend on a fancy new station when the extension is built.

Not to sound cynical, but come on. We're talking Lake County, people!
Dave
So let's get them to spend the money here, just so they spend it here?

I have to disagree with that. First, I personally don't think moving the train is a good idea for several reasons. I think the north end needs the train, and as a resident of the north end I like it right where it is. Taking it away is going to hurt businesses here and the residents here who use it to commute. I also like it because I think having a train running down the middle of the street is just plain cool -- where else do you ever see that? (I'll admit this is a matter of taste.)

Considering NITCD doesn't seem to be making tons of money as things are, I also think that their taking on the kind of major financial outlay moving the train would involve would, if anything, make them less viable than they are today, which would not be a good thing. IIRC they get substantial subsidies from the state and federal governments, and requiring additional taxpayer dollars to provide what is for all apparent purposes the same service is a bad idea. How long until some downstate politican or Washington congressman from some other state says something about the NITCD being a waste of money, seeing as it can't be run at a profit, and the whole thing gets shut down?

As has been mentioned in other threads on this board, there are a lot of people here in Michigan City and LaPorte County who are against change in any form. I'm not one of them. I think some proposed changes around here would be very good, one example of that being the proposed Intermodal facility (which I think is a no brainer). Other ideas -- expanded BP refinery (granted not in LaPorte, but still NW Indiana), waste transfer station, and this move the train plan, not good ideas.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Southsider2k12
QUOTE(mcstumper @ Oct 11 2007, 03:27 PM) *

There seems to be a misconception that if we don't move the South Shore south, we would save taxpayers $60 million.

To that I say, "HA!"

NICTD is essentially a government entity with deep roots in Lake and Porter Counties. Therefore, if the $60 million doesn't get spent here, it will get spent there. Why don't we sit here and brainstorm some more ways to meet all of our needs with the existing route, so that Valparaiso or Munster can have another $59 million to spend on a fancy new station when the extension is built.

Not to sound cynical, but come on. We're talking Lake County, people!


There might be a half truth to that sentiment. Usually big government projects like that involve matching funds, meaning that the Federal government puts up half the money, if the local entity can come up with the other half.

For me, the time saving just doesn't mean anything. The question is, is this project going to inject the money we put into it, back into Michigan City? If the answer is "no", it is a pork barrel waste project. If it is "yes", they we need to investigate how it is to be funded, and if it is feasible.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=41965.66

QUOTE
New South Shore Route Possible
The city can have the South Shore on the North End, if they work together. It does not have to cross Trail Creek. It will just take cooperation.

The city is trying to get the property along the north side of Eighth Street and along Michigan Boulevard, so, from the rails that end at East Eighth Street, the South Shore could follow the old right of way of the LE&W (Nickel Plate) that went to the old freight station on East Sixth Street. By going in back of the sewage plant, then curving along side of East Eighth Street, the tracks could go along the east side of Michigan Boulevard to just about the corner of Fourth Street, curving under the west end of the U.S. 12 bridge at Taylor Street. From there they would follow the old CI&L (Monon) tracks that went through Pioneer Lumber Co., then follow the old right of way, crossing Franklin Street south of Matey's, crossing the Amtrak line where the old Monon crossover was, and connecting to the old South Shore-Monon interchange, and picking up their own right of way to the west.

A loading platform and ticket office could be between Washington Street and Wabash Street, accessible from both streets. Parking could be on the northwest corner of Michigan and Wabash. The old gas station there is for sale now. If more parking is needed, maybe a deal can be worked with the outlet mall.

The city can have its river walk, and the area in between the walk and the railroad right of way could be used for other things.

Money and time have been wasted on high-priced studies and nothing has been done.

It would be necessary for the city, state highway and South Shore towork things out.

I doubt I will be around to see the tracks removed from 10th and 11th streets, which they have been talking about for the last 60-plus years.

Roger T. Storey

Michigan City
Roger Kaputnik
Ask, too, if the project will enable other projects to move ahead. For example, if condos are built to the water's edge, it makes many other projects impossible; therefore, condos to the water's edge are a BAD idea and should not be allowed.
Southsider2k12
I am going to throw this in here, because it fits the general theme here...

http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=47232.72

QUOTE
Study Tells Benefits Of Planning For Growth
Chambers told study should help governments develop financial policies.

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

LA PORTE - Land use decisions made within the county directly impact how much money the county must spend for basic services, according to recent study.

The results of that study were presented Tuesday at a joint membership luncheon of the La Porte and Michigan City chambers of commerce.

Dan Botich, a member of the economic development consulting firm Cender & Co., highlighted the "Costs of Community Services Study" prepared for the La Porte County Soil and Water Conservation District.

Botich said the intent of the study is to give county, city and town planning groups a financial basis for developing strategies and policies.

"It may be one more study, but it's important information for land use planners and economic developers to use for more efficient development for taxpayers," Botich said.

It was completed with support from county commissioners

La Porte County is the only county in Indiana to prepare this type of study, Botich said. It complements the La Porte County Land Use Development Plan - now in its final stages of development - by looking at the financial implications of land use development decisions.

The La Porte County COCS study should be updated every five years, the consultant said, to account for revised tax policies.

Originally developed by the nonprofit American Farmland Trust, the planning tool was intended to be used to conserve or preserve farmland in Pennsylvania. Based on studies of more than 70 communities, the Pennsylvania COCS showed for every $1 of tax revenue received for residential property, another $1.15 is used in services such as schools, libraries and protection services.

On the other hand, commercial and industrial land requires only 29 cents in services and farmland - even with homesteads - only requires 37 cents in services.

Botich noted that each year, about 100,000 acres of Indiana farmland is converted to non-agricultural uses. From 1997 to 2002, Indiana ranked 11th on the list of states losing the most farmland, based on information from the American Farmland Trust.

La Porte Mayor Leigh Morris, who attended the luncheon, said he hears from people who think the city should become a bedroom community for nearby cities. From the study, he said, "It would be a pretty bad outcome."

Botich said the study was not anti-residential development but makes a case for being aware of the potential financial impact of permitting large residential developments.

The COCS study collected data on total tax revenues received by each city, town, township, school system, public library and the county in fiscal year 2005, as well as how the revenue was spent.

Botich said the study was not intended to make judgments about land use or taxing structures, nor predict the impacts of future land use development decisions. What the study does best, he said, is to help strike a balance between negative fiscal impacts of residential units and positive impact of other land uses.



Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.
Roger Kaputnik
I really like the idea of keeping development where it already has happened: But we have to call it REdevelopment. There are many models for this, and one of the best i have seen is the near East Side of Indianapolis.
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