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Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...;ArticleID=5612

QUOTE
Mayor: Action Soon On Hiring Issue

Jason Miller
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - A resolution aimed at minority hiring in the Michigan City Fire Department and within the city should come soon, Mayor Chuck Oberlie said at Tuesday night's City Council meeting.

"We're going to take a look at ordinances to see if we can level the playing field," he said. "My staff is reviewing the composition of various city departments. We should have something in November."

Oberlie said attorneys from the city and the council are reviewing a 1978 consent decree that says the roster of the city's fire department should mirror the racial makeup of the city.

The local NAACP chapter has threatened to sue the city over noncompliance with the decree, which was issued on the heels of a lawsuit filed by several black firefighters.

Questions concerning the validity of the decades-old decree arose more than a year ago when the city changed the fire hiring ordinance to give preference to city residents and eliminate certain advantages for applicants with fire science and fire fighting knowledge.

The majority of the council, as well as Oberlie, believes the decree is still in effect.

"The City Council has an interest in making sure compliance is enforced," Council Attorney Jim Meyer said.

While the city is being sued over the consent decree, the issue of minority hiring has plagued the city for years, and is being brought up again in light of concerns over fire-department hiring.

Glen Wilson, 803 Spring St., said Tuesday he never sees "black bodies" working on public works projects like street paving and sewer jobs. He said the black community isn't content with having a "token here and a token there."

"It seems like a conspiracy with the unions and the political muscle to exclude some people," said Wilson, who is black. "Give us some idea, or something to bite on. Or is it just going to be business as usual?"

Council President Willie Milsap, a black firefighter, said Tuesday he sees progress.

"You have to figure out where you've been before you figure out where you're going," he said. "We're finally on the last chapter. I'm confident we can finally put this to bed and all move forward in the right decision for Michigan City."
Roger Kaputnik
Am I the only one who thinks that if a guy does not do well on the entrance exam, he should not be hired? I long for the day when a man is judged by the actual score on the test, and not by the points added because of the color of his skin. And please do not give me the upbringing argument; when a person is old enough to take the exam, he is old enough to know to get help preparing if needed.
Ang
I agree with Roger on this.
RedDevilMC
Let me correct some of the statements that have been made. This refers to the Fire Department. The ranking is comprised of several things: Test, Physical agility, interview, military experience, residency. You get points for all of those items. I can tell you that the highest scores were not ranked number 1, 2, or 3. Being ranked in the top 5 doesn't mean you will be the best or most qualified firefighter. That could mean they liked you better in the interview. I get upset because I know and understand. There are several African Americans that are on the that list of over 55 that have met the "Qualified applicants list". They also tested over 85% but without military experience or the best interview they were ranked lower.

Please be careful in how you read the media. I'm sick of the term most qualified. These are points in several different areas. I'm a test taker, so If I score 100% am I the most qualified? Also, remember all new hires have to go through mandatory training. No one is looking for a handout just a fair shake. The ordinance has to be changed in some manner to make sure this doesn't continue but I'm tired of this whole coming across as if black people cannot pass or are not qualified, that's not the case.
JHeath
QUOTE(RedDevilMC @ Oct 18 2007, 03:36 PM) *

Let me correct some of the statements that have been made. This refers to the Fire Department. The ranking is comprised of several things: Test, Physical agility, interview, military experience, residency. You get points for all of those items. I can tell you that the highest scores were not ranked number 1, 2, or 3. Being ranked in the top 5 doesn't mean you will be the best or most qualified firefighter. That could mean they liked you better in the interview. I get upset because I know and understand. There are several African Americans that are on the that list of over 55 that have met the "Qualified applicants list". They also tested over 85% but without military experience or the best interview they were ranked lower.

Please be careful in how you read the media. I'm sick of the term most qualified. These are points in several different areas. I'm a test taker, so If I score 100% am I the most qualified? Also, remember all new hires have to go through mandatory training. No one is looking for a handout just a fair shake. The ordinance has to be changed in some manner to make sure this doesn't continue but I'm tired of this whole coming across as if black people cannot pass or are not qualified, that's not the case.


I realize this is not the case, but you would have to agree that as a whole, our City does not have a racially diverse workforce. I don't believe that race should play a factor in any part of this...but the way it appears to the general public right now, it certainly seems as though it does.
Ang
I too realize that's not the case. And I realize more goes into being on the fire department than just taking a test. I dated an MC Fire Fighter for a long time and I fully understand what is involved.
As far as selecting the best candidate goes, I don't believe that should even be an issue of race. If the entire department was made up of blacks and hispanics I wouldn't care as long as they were the most qualified.
If I was standing outside while my home was on fire, I'm not going to think, "Oh look, they have an equal number of races on this department" I'm going to think, "Dear Lord, let these people know what they're doing and save my house."
I'm not arguing against this lawsuit. I do believe everyone should be treated the same and have an equal shot. I just hope they're not limiting the amount of minorities so as not to "exceed the recommended amount." In other words, pass up a highly qualified black guy because then there would be one too many.
JHeath
QUOTE(Ang @ Oct 18 2007, 04:32 PM) *

...I do believe everyone should be treated the same and have an equal shot. I just hope they're not limiting the amount of minorities so as not to "exceed the recommended amount." In other words, pass up a highly qualified black guy because then there would be one too many.


Exactly!
Roger Kaputnik
Red Devil, I would be in favor of removing subjective criteria and making it as objective as possible. I am not familiar with the details of the testing and selection; maybe a lawsuit is the only way to remove those factors that allow this subjectivity. I am NOT in favor of quotas, or as I like to call them, limits. Anyone who uses race as a criterion should leave the dept.
RedDevilMC
I agree. The reality is that many of us (African Americans) qualified or not didn't have the opportunity to get hired unless you knew someone. I still have that problem especially in Laporte County. I have applied for many positions in the last year and never received a phone call or interview.

I agree we need qualified individuals. Here are a few items. We have over 45 individuals on the current list that are qualified. We have several African Americans and a few women I believe. They are all qualified to serve and protect us. So, what should we do with this consent decree with that being said? We know we have not met many of the items that were stated in this judgement. That's the big question. All I know is that there have been many cases where someone was overlooked because they were Black or because they had a friend or family member in mind for the job. SO there are arguments on both side of the fence. I just happen to be Black and had to experience it first hand by being an Electrical Engineer which is male dominated with low minority representation.

I would never hire someone just because they are Black or White. Hard decisions coming up...stay tuned.


My two cents.
Ang
From what I understand, when it comes to getting a job on the MC Fire Department, it really doesn't matter who you are, it's always about who you know.

One question though: When the Fire Chief position was held by a black man, were the issues now issues then? Or has this all come about since Ralph Martin retired?
JHeath
QUOTE(Ang @ Oct 22 2007, 03:41 PM) *

From what I understand, when it comes to getting a job on the MC Fire Department, it really doesn't matter who you are, it's always about who you know.

One question though: When the Fire Chief position was held by a black man, were the issues now issues then? Or has this all come about since Ralph Martin retired?


No, as far as I know, this issue has been around for a while. The fire dept. just seems to get most of the publicity about it, but I think it's going on in all of the City's depts.
RedDevilMC
That's correct most of the Black hirings happened directly after the Decree when Brooks was the Fire Chief. Once the Fire Merit Commission was put in place in the late 80's the hiring was next to none.
Southsider2k12
Of all jobs that should include merit based hirings, the ones that put peoples lives on the line are the last ones. I think someone said it eariler, but the best people on the job, period. If my house is on fire, I don't care who the hell shows up, they just better know how to do their jobs, and be better at it than anyone else. That's all I care about. They could be purple for all I care, as long as they can fight a blaze, that's all that matters to me.

Big picture-wise, this might make an interesting race discussion if people are interested.

The question is, in 2007 do these programs do more harm than good, or are they an important part of correcting history?
RedDevilMC
Still,
I ask everyone, what does best person or most qualified mean when most of these people that are on the list have no fire experience? They took a basic math, english, logic test. They went through an interview and did a physical agility test. So they are all qualified. Does that mean because I scored the highest on the test that I am most qualified?

How do we correct the injustice (nepotism) that was done for all of those years where they didn't hire black people who were qualified but did not have the connections within the department? That's why they went to court in the first place.
JHeath
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=39809.25

QUOTE
Consent Decree May Be Updated

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Proposed changes in Michigan City's ordinance concerning the hiring of firefighters will be considered at the common council meeting Wednesday.

Modifications to the Fire Merit Ordinance now are being proposed to clarify the ordinance and remain in compliance with the original consent decree. The modification would require all eligible fire fighter candidates to be divided into two lists, the first one made up of minority candidates based on race, color, religion, sex or national origin. Candidates from the minority pool would be hired first until the percentage of hires approximated the percentage of minorities in the city population.

If either pool is depleted before a balance can be achieved, the city will launch a marketing effort to recruit potential candidates. Once candidates pass the series of required tests - written and agility tests and an oral interview - the minority list will be used to hire two out of every three candidates for open positions in the Michigan City Fire Department.

Another modification would allow candidates to remain on the eligibility list for up to two years, instead of requiring retesting every year.

City council liaisons Pat Boy and Phil Jankowski presented the amendments at Monday's meeting of the Fire Merit Commission in council chambers. Council president Willie Milsap and Michigan City mayor Chuck Oberlie were also at the meeting.

The original ordinance was developed according to a consent decree issued in 1978 by the U.S. District Court of the Northern District of Indiana, in response to a lawsuit filed by African Americans against the city. The consent decree said Michigan City's hiring process could consider a candidate's race, color, religion, sex or national origin in order to compensate for a racial imbalance in the composition of city employees compared with the composition of the city population.

The city attorney maintained records from 1978 through 1985 to ensure that minorities made up 22 percent of city employees, as determined by the local Human Rights Commission.

Pam Krause, attorney for the Fire Merit Commission, said that although it was still in effect, the consent decree was forgotten over the past few years, since none of the fire department employees retired and the city had imposed a hiring freeze for budgetary reasons.
Roger Kaputnik
Consent decree was forgotten?!
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=50239.16

QUOTE
Milsap Offers Amendment For Hiring
Council president says it is an effort to ensure equality for fire department.

Jason Miller
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - City Council President Willie Milsap doesn't look at his proposed amendment to the city's fire department hiring ordinance as a racial quota.

The longtime firefighter says it's simply an effort at equality.

"It can't be a quota when we have a federal judgment telling us this needs to be done," Milsap said Wednesday after the council heard his amendment on first reading. "I just want everybody to be patient. This is going to happen, but it won't happen in a day."

Milsap's amendment is aimed at making sure the city's fire merit commission hires minorities to fill a number of positions on the department that would equal the percentage of minorities in Michigan City.

A federal judgment issued in 1978 has been neglected since the early 1980s, Milsap said, and the council and Mayor Chuck Oberlie are trying to put the judgment back in place.

Although Milsap doesn't look at the issue as a mandate for racial quotas, he and council attorney Jim Meyer understand it could lead to reverse discrimination lawsuits filed by white applicants who feel they were passed over for hire because they aren't a minority.

"Nothing can stop anybody from filing a suit," Meyer said, "but the consent judgment could be a defense to that plan."

Milsap agreed.

"The difference is that we have a judgment," he said. "It's not negotiable. If we're going to err, which I don't think we are, I'd rather err in favor of a federal judgment."

A group of five local attorneys studied the judgment and relating legal precedence to decide if the decree was still valid after some 30 years of inactivity.

Milsap said the "dream team" of lawyers that included Meyer, corporation attorneys John Espar and Jennifer Evans, merit commission attorney Pamela Krause and another attorney each agreed the judgment remains valid.

"That's five lawyers who all said this is good," he said. "Five lawyers."

Contact Jason Miller at jmiller@thenewsdispatch.com.


Roger Kaputnik
Hmmmmmm.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=41327.17

QUOTE
Council Tables Hiring Ordinance
Former councilman calls proposed changes a quota system for city fire department.

Jason Miller
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Former Michigan City Councilman Beryle Burgwald said Tuesday night a proposed change to the city's fire hiring ordinance is nothing more than a quota system.

And the council's attorney agreed with him.

Jim Meyer, though, said in the case of the Michigan City ordinance, such a system would not prove unconstitutional.

"I won't disagree with Mr. Burgwald that generally quotas have been found unlawful," Meyer, the council attorney, said Tuesday. "But federal law is pretty clear that once a consent judgment is in place ... it continues in full force and effect unless it's satisfied or a judge changes it or dismisses it."

Council members on Tuesday tabled a new ordinance on second reading to give themselves a chance to shore up the final draft, which contains several amendments.

Board members decided to change the hiring ordinance earlier this year in light of a federal 1979 consent decree requiring the fire department's minority makeup mirrors that of the city, as a whole.

The city, according to some officials and the local NAACP chapter, has been in violation of the decree for some 30 years because the department hasn't employed a commensurate number of minorities.

The NAACP has threatened to sue the city in light of the decree.

Burgwald, who was a City Council member when the board drafted the original fire merit ordinance, said Tuesday the ordinance in its new mode would go against the notion of merit hiring.

"When we wrote this, we meant it to be based on a merit system without any non-merit consideration," Burgwald said. "It's unfortunate since it went into operation, it's been so watered down ... that today it ceases to be a true merit system."

Last year, the council changed the fire merit ordinance to take out consideration given to applicants with fire science knowledge and experience, and replace those considerations with points for city residency.

The new draft would, under the guise of the decree, change the system again to hire based on race.

"It will be a quota system, plain and simple," Burgwald said. "If you're going to do that, you should strike out the word 'merit'."

Contact Jason Miller at jmiller@thenewsdispatch.com.
Roger Kaputnik
If everyone in the pool is considered to be eligible for hire, why isn't a lottery used to select the new guys?
edgeywood
QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Nov 21 2007, 05:20 PM) *

If everyone in the pool is considered to be eligible for hire, why isn't a lottery used to select the new guys?



Clearly, a lottery wasn't used to select new hires for the last 20 years....some other "method" was in place. Were all those new hires "the best qualified"?. It seems to me that the method used for the past 20 years was affirmative action for white guys.

There is a consent decree. The city entered into the consent decree in order to avoid a lawsuit. The city did not abide by the terms of the agreement. It seems to me that the city needs to rectify the situation ASAP.









Southsider2k12
Welcome to the site smile.gif
edgeywood
QUOTE(southsider2k7 @ Nov 23 2007, 09:08 AM) *

Welcome to the site smile.gif


I've been lurking for awhile! This is a great forum.
Max Main
Send the link to your address book so the net is cast widely. I would like to send it to the various pastors in town, too.
JHeath
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...&TM=41001.5

QUOTE
Amended Ordinance Protested
City Council will act on final passage at Dec. 18 meeting.

Jason Miller
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Residents pushing Michigan City to change its hiring practices for the fire department protested an amended ordinance aimed at those changes Tuesday night.

Mike Rivera, head of the La Porte County Chapter of the NAACP, was concerned qualified black applicants would not be hired to the department under the new ordinance because they've missed a testing deadline.

The ordinance - which has been proposed to adhere to a 1978 federal consent judgment requiring more minorities be hired on the department - creates two applicant lists that would become law in 2008.

The current list of applicants - on which some five blacks are listed - will be null and void, per law, as of Jan. 1. Applicants to be placed on the new lists for 2008 have already begun the application process. No one is currently on the minority list, which city council president Willie Milsap calls the "diversity" list. It's being drawn up because the city fills the first two or three open positions with black applicants.

"There are qualified African Americans on the current list. Do they have an opportunity to become firefighters under the new ordinance?" Rivera asked. "If you start another list, they'll have to start all the way at the beginning."

Council attorney James Meyer said anyone on the current list will lose their spot as of Jan. 1. The list includes top job candidates based on test and interview scores.

Council members said they'll continue to look at the proposed ordinance and will act on its final passage on Dec. 18.
Roger Kaputnik
What is the testing deadline that was missed? Does this mean that some deadline was missed by the applicants? In that case, shouldn't they be out of luck, and not expect a second chance that not everyone gets?

Councilwoman Starks, whaddya think?
lovethiscity
QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Oct 18 2007, 11:32 AM) *

Am I the only one who thinks that if a guy does not do well on the entrance exam, he should not be hired? I long for the day when a man is judged by the actual score on the test, and not by the points added because of the color of his skin. And please do not give me the upbringing argument; when a person is old enough to take the exam, he is old enough to know to get help preparing if needed.

The recent hiring debacle in the Sanitary District is shining a light on the Michigan City government's hiring practices. It is not hard to figure out why even with a federal court mandate, there is no diversity in the public service workforce. It is not who is best qualified for the job, but rather what family member needs a job. Take Cindy Wallace's brother-in-law Bob (Vanessa's husband) whom did not even meet the minimum qualification of three years experience in the marine industry as required in the Assistant Harbor Masters job posting. He was given the job over others that had decades of experience. Causing the Port Authority to loose dedicated employees that felt shunned and or just could not work for this guy so they quit. When these practices were brought up by Council members Jankowski and Pryzbalinski the press crucified them.
So God Bless the Laporte chapter of the NAACP for doing what ever it takes to undo decades of wrong.
RedDevilMC
Let me say a few things about this because my siblings and I endure things from many different angles by us having college degrees. First, many of the African Americans that have been on the list, have been on it many times and have moved up and down on the list each year. The issue this last time was the physical agility test. It wasn't about missing a testing deadline.

If you look at many names of the current firefighters, many of them are related to each other or retired firefighters. That's how the consent decree came about. You had to know someone. Once the judgement was placed several african american firefighters were hired. Quite frankly they were in compliance until the Fire Merit Commission was put in place. Once in place, fire science became a big issue. You only obtain fire science knowledge through schooling or volunteer fire departments. That was a big hit to the African Americans who typically live in urban areas not rural areas. So the last 27 firefighters hired were white.

My take is just fix it. We have a Federal Judgement that says do it. I'm bothered by the fact that people are harping on reverse discrimination when in fact nepotism/cronyism could be considered the same thing. These black guys on the list are not at the bottom of the list. They are in the top 25%. Actually, they have great work ethic and have been in stable situations and upstanding citizens. They live in MC. I feel like the city can do what they want if they really wanted to. This judgement should out weigh any ordinance on the books. Right now, I don't have the confidence in hiring practices that have gone on in MC. I'm friends with many firefighters and I understand their point also. I wish we could have included more input from some of them on this matter. They were excluded in this whole process.

I don't like the separate list but I guess that's what the consensus came up with. Whomever those lucky Black people are to get hired, they will have a hard time being welcomed. I feel like we are in the 60's. They will always have a mark on them. It's going to take another 10 years to get through this (what a shame).

I've been in many situations like this myself, when I know I was qualified for positions and didn't receive any consideration what-so-ever. This has primarily been in Laporte County. I've never had many issues like this in major metropolitan area. Not putting my business out there but I applied for that Sanitary position and didn't receive an interview at all. I was at the bottom of the list then. Out of 14 candidates, can you believe that! So it is what it is. All I can do is stand up for what is right and not whine about it (too much). We have a long road ahead of us. I just hope to receive input from all of you. Remember it's not about me, it's about the greater good of the city and what my supporters want and need to move forward. This includes most of you (I hope).

Angie
Southsider2k12
It funny because I started at working at Lighthouse Place right out of college. They were god-awful paying jobs, so it was pretty ethnically balanced.

Then when I started to work in Chicago, many times I have been one of the few white males on the job. For example in the 3 shifts that rotate at my current position and company, I am one of only two white males that work here. When you get into employment situations and labor pools like Chicago, the competitiveness dictates that you have to hire the people who do the best job, not the people who look like you. That has gone from intro level postions, all of the way up the management ladder. Its sad I can't see that same commitment to excellence in my own hometown.
JHeath
QUOTE(RedDevilMC @ Dec 6 2007, 09:24 PM) *

I've been in many situations like this myself, when I know I was qualified for positions and didn't receive any consideration what-so-ever. This has primarily been in Laporte County. I've never had many issues like this in major metropolitan area. Not putting my business out there but I applied for that Sanitary position and didn't receive an interview at all. I was at the bottom of the list then. Out of 14 candidates, can you believe that! So it is what it is. All I can do is stand up for what is right and not whine about it (too much). We have a long road ahead of us. I just hope to receive input from all of you. Remember it's not about me, it's about the greater good of the city and what my supporters want and need to move forward. This includes most of you (I hope).

Angie

Somehow, I think that your engineering degree would make you MUCH more qualified than a relative with multiple DUI's in need of a job. But what do I know?
Roger Kaputnik
Thank you for your response, RedDevil. I am happy that you will be in position to exert some influence over these matters. I still think the qualified pool should be seen as that, and not as an ordered list. In other words, the results should be pass/fail. The candidates should be hired by selection in a draw.

The cronyism is rampant, and this also results in racially-biased hiring, at least in MC. That is a HUGE drag on this City and area. Go forward, NAACP!
JHeath
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=43446.05

QUOTE
12/7/2007 11:30:00 AM
No Quick Fix For Hiring Changes

Jason Miller
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Even if the City Council was to change the fire department's hiring ordinance today to adhere to a 1978 federal judgment, the hoped-for results likely would not be realized for several years.

"There've been less than five new hires since I've been on the commission. It's not like there will be a rash of hires after this is changed," Fire Merit Commission president-elect Bart Lombard said Thursday. "Anyone looking for an immediate correction to the hiring issues is going to be sadly disappointed."

Lombard and Michigan City Fire Chief Dave Lamb agreed Thursday the department only plans to hire one firefighter in the next two years. One firefighter has announced his retirement for 2008, and two other retirements have been announced for 2010.

Unless someone leaves the department "out of the blue," Lombard said, the department - which traditionally has low turnover - won't soon be able to hire the three minorities it must hire to adhere to the judgment.

U.S. District Judge Allan Sharp issued the decree in 1978 after several black men sued the city for unfair hiring practices. The judgment decrees the fire department's racial makeup should mirror that of the city's population.

"The average age of our department right now is 43," Lamb said. "In five or six years, we could have retirements and the numbers (of job openings) could be extremely high. But right now you're right, there probably won't be many (openings)."

The La Porte County NAACP chapter has threatened to sue the city if it doesn't adhere to the judgment. That chapter's president, Mike Rivera, said Thursday night the current issue could've been avoided if the city had adhered to the decree years ago.

"It's an ongoing thing. There's always an obstacle to get over," Rivera said. "They had the chance to hire some black firefighters a few years ago and they didn't. Now, there's no openings again.

"That's the dilemma we face."

The new ordinance - which should be approved by the City Council on Dec. 18 - would create two lists from which the department would hire. One list would be for white applicants and the other, called the "diversity" list by council president Willie Milsap, would contain minority candidates.

The judgment says the next three hires within the department would have to be minorities.

JHeath
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...;ArticleID=7502
QUOTE
12/10/2007 10:38:00 AM
'Racial Quotas' May Be Acceptable

Jason Miller
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Michigan City Common Council members aren't afraid to classify their proposed hiring changes for the city's fire department as a system of racial quotas.

Many members, in fact, feel a 1978 federal court decree that requires hiring based on race is the silver bullet in defending any reverse-discrimination lawsuits that might result from the proposed ordinance.

That opinion could be correct, but dealing with such suits might not be as easy as some council members think.

"Any time a government uses race to allocate benefits - like jobs - you have to ask if there's a compelling reason," said Jennifer Mason McAward, an associate professor of law at the University of Notre Dame. "Strict quotas are looked at carefully and are often frowned upon."

The city council later this month is likely to pass an amended fire department hiring ordinance that will set up separate applicant lists for minorities and give extra points for applicants who live in Michigan City.

The move comes as officials have decided a federal consent decree handed down in 1978 demanding the fire department's racial roster mimic the minority makeup of the city remains in effect.

To adhere to the decree, city officials have said the department's next three hires must be minorities, regardless of where they fall on the weighted list of applicants.

The city's Fire Merit Commission ranks applicants based on several test scores.

Council attorney Jim Meyer and council president Willie Milsap have pointed to the consent decree as the "silver bullet" that would serve as a defense for any possible reverse-discrimination suits resulting from the quota system.

Mason McAward, who wouldn't comment on the Michigan City issue because she's not familiar with it, alluded Friday to a pair of circumstances under which the institution of racial quotas in hiring are looked upon favorably.

Both have been mentioned by city officials in the protracted discussions about the new ordinance.

Mason McAward said racial hiring can be safely predicated on a government's need to remedy past discrimination, and on its perceived need to better diversity the department to better serve the community.

Mike Rivera, head of the La Porte County chapter of the NAACP, said integrating the fire department according to the federal decree would benefit diversity in Michigan City.

"The system is not working," Rivera said at the Fire Merit Commission meeting Thursday night. "There have been opportunities to fix this problem and they haven't done it. This needs to get done."
Southsider2k12
Racial quotas are not the answer to this problem. Period. Hiring the most qualified people is the answer.
JHeath
I'm not sure if anyone else listened to "Talk of the Town" last Saturday morning, or if I was the only one, but...there was a lady who called in about this issue. She insisted that there were several candidates who were passed by simply because they were black, but when offered the opportunity to have them apply to the Coolspring Volunteer Fire Dept., she declined, saying they were tired of being turned down. Both hosts tried to make the point that the firefghters who had been hired had either gained experience through the volunteer fire depts., or had gone to school to learn fire science...they said it had nothing to do with race.
Southsider2k12
To me both of those items are considered qualifications.
Roger Kaputnik
I have the solution, posted elsewhere, viz., pick from a pool of qualified applicants at random. This removes racial politics from the equation. I volunteer to be the one who picks the names out of the hat.
lovethiscity
QUOTE(JHeath @ Dec 10 2007, 02:24 PM) *

I'm not sure if anyone else listened to "Talk of the Town" last Saturday morning, or if I was the only one, but...there was a lady who called in about this issue. She insisted that there were several candidates who were passed by simply because they were black, but when offered the opportunity to have them apply to the Coolspring Volunteer Fire Dept., she declined, saying they were tired of being turned down. Both hosts tried to make the point that the firefghters who had been hired had either gained experience through the volunteer fire depts., or had gone to school to learn fire science...they said it had nothing to do with race.

There are not a whole lot of African Americans living in the rural areas. This is where the lack of opportunity comes from. Residents of Coolspring Township are not likely to ask a fire to hold off until the volunteers from the westside of Michigan City can get there. It is not logical, practical or realistic. Recruiting firefighters with experience from volunteer dept.'s puts them in the same academy and probationary status as hiring a new recruit with no knowledge or experience. So in other words once hired they are treated as if they have no experience. They are trained the same and once completion of training happens they are all experienced. So giving extra credit to somebody with experiance only to turn around and train them as if they have none is silly. It might just be the reason Michigan City is in violation of a federal mandate.
JHeath
I don't think it's so silly when it comes to saving someone's life or potentially lessening the damage to their homes. Personally, I believe that this is one of those areas where experience counts.

While I'd agree that there may not be a lot of minorities living in rural areas, Coolspring Township is a pretty large area. I believe that everything inside of the city limits south of Coolspring (even into Trail Creek), west of Johnson Road, and over to County Line Road is considered to be part of Coolspring Township. You can't deny that there are minorities living in at least some of this specific area.

The opportunity is there--it just needs to be taken advantage of.
Southsider2k12
I believe the Pines has a volunteer FD that isn't too far away from the west side of MC...
Roger Kaputnik
Regarding the part of MC in Coolspring Twp., the CTVFD does respond, the MCFD does.
Marram
When it comes to the police officers and firemen (and women) who serve and protect my community, I want the best. Period.

If you want to address this issue the right way, develop a program to recruit and train minority candidates so that they are the best. Let's lift people up, not carry them.
JHeath
QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Dec 12 2007, 04:15 PM) *

Regarding the part of MC in Coolspring Twp., the CTVFD does respond, the MCFD does.

Very true...but they can still volunteer and gain the experience. That was my point.
lovethiscity
QUOTE(Teach @ Dec 12 2007, 05:14 PM) *

When it comes to the police officers and firemen (and women) who serve and protect my community, I want the best. Period.

If you want to address this issue the right way, develop a program to recruit and train minority candidates so that they are the best. Let's lift people up, not carry them.

We do it is the very same Academy that the volunteer firefighters with no experiance go to get experiance. So what is so wrong with selecting Michigan City residents to get their experiane here? Right now over 60% of our firefighters live out of town.
Marram
QUOTE(lovethiscity @ Dec 12 2007, 10:08 PM) *

We do it is the very same Academy that the volunteer firefighters with no experiance go to get experiance. So what is so wrong with selecting Michigan City residents to get their experiane here? Right now over 60% of our firefighters live out of town.


If my house is burning down, I want the candidate that will give me the fastest response time and the best chance of stopping the fire and (God forebid) saving my family. I don't care if he/she is black, white or purple with pink poka-dots. I don't care if he/she lives in Michigan City, Chesterton or Fort Wayne as long as that person is available for work when she/he is supposed to be.

If we want to promote minority candidates from Michigan City, we need to find a way to make those candidates the best. I have enough confidence in the people of my hometown that I believe we can do that. But when it comes down to the selection process, the only thing that should matter is the competence level of the candidate.
Roger Kaputnik
Are the firefighters hired fully trained? What is the process from greenhorn to veteran?
lovethiscity
QUOTE(Roger Kaputnik @ Dec 13 2007, 08:12 AM) *

Are the firefighters hired fully trained? What is the process from greenhorn to veteran?

They are all treated as if they know nothing and sent to the Acadamy for education and traing. The same training that would be given to the out of town volunteer firefighters. Even these volunteers once hired here would be sent to the Acadamy again. So why is it more important to have an out of towner protect us? I have no clue. They all start with no experiance and with over 60 % of our current firemen living outside of town, we should be giving incentives for residents. Not for experiance that does not matter when they treat rookies like they know nothing. Fire science and continued education once hired can't be counted towards promotion according to the firefighters own union contract.
Roger Kaputnik
I think you are right about this. Whaddya think, Other Gentle readers?
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...;ArticleID=7749

QUOTE
Doubt Now Surrounds Fire Merit Post
GOP member’s voting record called into question.

Jason Miller
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Chris Chatfield's second term on the Michigan City Fire Merit Commission, thought to be a lock after his re-election last month, now is in doubt because of what some are calling a technicality.

Members of Firefighters Local 475 will be forced to replace Chatfield on Dec. 20 because the one-term commissioner apparently has switched political parties.

"We're very happy with Chris. We really don't want to see him go. He's done a really good job for us," Local 475 President Jeff Bruder said. "We don't see it as such a political job, but I guess that's the way statute says it has to be."

Chatfield is the union's Republican representative on the commission. According to the ordinance governing the board, the union must elect two representatives of different political parties. The other firefighters' representative is Democrat John J. Stimley. Mayor Chuck Oberlie's two appointees also must be of opposite political parties.

According to La Porte County Republican Chairwoman Coral Laun, Chatfield has voted Democratic in two of the past three primary elections, deeming him a Democrat and, thus, unable to serve as the union's second appointee.

La Porte County Voter Registration confirmed Chatfield's recent record, as did Chatfield himself.

In an interview with The News-Dispatch, Chatfield said he is a registered Republican, but voted for a few Democrats in recent primaries because no Re-publicans were on the ballot. "I'm a thinking person. In those primaries, there were no Republicans and there were some Democrats I felt needed to be elected, even though they're Democrats," he said. "I'm a member of the Republican Party, but in a situation like that, you have to look at the people and vote for who you think is right for the position."

Union members re-elected Chatfield about a month ago, but the election has been voided and will be held again Dec. 20 because the vote wasn't properly advertised in the department.

Bruder said the vote wasn't made public at the city's four fire stations and only five firefighters - union members who heard about the vote through the "grapevine" - showed up to cast a ballot.

Chatfield won re-election, but the Michigan City Board of Works last week rescheduled the vote after it was brought to members' attention by firefighters.

"The information filtered in to (the department's headquarters). That's how we had five guys there," Bruder said. "This is all on the Board of Works. All the union does is select a commissioner. It's up to the Board of Works to do the election."

The notion that politics is having such an impact on the commission irks Chatfield, who said the issue being discussed now goes against what the commission was formed to do.

"The merit commission was put together to take the politics out of this whole thing. Now, the politics are right back in it," he said. "That's unfortunate. And it's unfortunate that I'm going to be out."



Contact Jason Miller at jmiller@thenewsdispatch.com.
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