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Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=39824.82

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17 crossings may be eliminated
The NICTD preliminary concept for rerouting the South Shore through Michigan City eliminates 17 of the current 34 street crossings. The 17 intersections are marked on the preliminary concept for the South Shore relocation. While the crossing at Washington Street is not Xed out, that is the proposed location for a new train station. Based on the plan, the following crossings would be closed:

Carlon Court and adjacent alley, Donnelly Street and adjacent alley, Claire Street, Kentucky Street, Tennessee Street, Elston Street, Manhattan Street, Buffalo Street, Spring Street, Cedar Street, Lafayette Street, York Street, Oak Street, Maple Street and Phillips Avenue.
More South Shore details released

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Property owners with parcels south of current South Shore tracks on 10th and 11th streets await an uncertain future until plans for realigning the commuter train are adopted.

The Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District operates the South Shore and announced last week it intends to significantly re-configure more than two miles of track running through Michigan City. NICTD's preliminary downtown rerouting concept, developed by TranSystems of Chicago, shows the tracks heading south of 10th Street at Sheridan Avenue and proceeding through town to a point just east of Michigan Boulevard, where the regular route resumes.

John Parsons, NICTD spokesperson, said properties north of 11th Street will not be affected. He said the specific houses and properties that would be impacted by the change have not yet been identified. He said the project, estimated at $65 million, has been developed at a "gross level of detail" and changes could be made as the engineering process moves forward.

A map labeled "Preliminary Downtown Reroute Concept" shows a South Shore station and 775-space parking area between Franklin and Wabash streets and from Warren Street north to 11th Street. The map includes station information that lists the current 11th Street parking lot at 42 spaces and the Carroll Avenue station at 155 spaces. Those stations would be replaced with the new downtown station.

The new route is designed to eliminate the curve between 10th and 11th streets near the Amtrak intersection, and also remove the curve at Cedar and Lafayette streets. As now indicated on the map, the tracks run parallel but one row of houses south of the existing 11th street tracks between Kentucky Street and Michigan Boulevard.

At Sheridan Avenue, looking east, the proposed route angles to the right, eventually running well behind the houses on the south side of 10th Street and linking directly with the portion of track that would be just south of 11th Street.

Chicago Street would be rerouted, but it would retain a crossing of the South Shore tracks.

Depending on funding and station design, Parsons said a parking ramp could be constructed, allowing for private developers to create an activity center in the areas surrounding the station.

An environmental impact statement will be required before property can be purchased, Parsons said.

"An environmental impact statement and public hearing are required as part of the process," he said. "The specifics will follow as part of the on-going process to qualify for federal funding."

NICTD has yet to obtain funding for the detailed engineering plan that comes next, Parsons said.

Michigan City Mayor Chuck Oberlie has reviewed the NICTD preliminary downtown route and will present the plan to the City Council for its approval. Parsons expects some issues to be raised by the council at that point.

"We certainly want to develop a plan in concert with Michigan City that meets their needs," Parsons said.

Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...ArticleID=23756

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The Issue:

The commuter line's board has decided to improve the existing route through Michigan City.

Our Opinion:

A decision is welcome news. This will have a big impact on the city.
South Shore
Railroad selects route

Editorial

For years officials have pondered how best to address a major bottleneck along the South Shore commuter route - the tracks that run along 10th and 11th streets through Michigan City.

Alternatives were proposed, including using the Amtrak right of way across the north end of the city, and using the CSX corridor that crosses the city near Ames Field. In the end, the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District has settled on staying in the 10th and 11th Street corridor, but separating the tracks and the auto traffic.

It is good that a decision finally has been made; now if the City Council approves and the $65 million in funding can be obtained, a major element in the redevelopment of this older part of the city can finalized. It's an opportunity to create a dramatically improved design for the areas affected.

It probably will take several years, but commuters will finally have an improved train station. The NICTD board decision means the end is in sight for Michigan City to be the last major location on the route without a modern depot. This train station is proposed to be at Washington and 11th streets.

Details of the plan aren't finalized, but the South Shore changes are going to have a huge impact on residents and the map of Michigan City. The train station will have parking for some 800 cars, meaning many parcels of property will have to be obtained and cleared. Seventeen of 34 street crossings will be closed to enable the South Shore to pick up greater speed as it runs through the city. Washington Street and other streets will become cul-de-sacs, with no through traffic. Properties will have to be acquired on the south side of 10th and 11th streets, meaning relocation for residents.

South Shore trains have traveled this route through the heart of the city for more than 100 years,. This plan sets a course for the city for many decades to come.

City officials need to move quickly to make sure the public is apprised of all the details of how this will impact their lives.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=39652.84

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11th Street chosen for South Shore station
Project has been in works for 10 years

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - A $65 million project that would substantially change South Shore passenger service to Michigan City will be presented to Mayor Chuck Oberlie and the City Council for review and approval.

The Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District board approved a memorandum of understanding, to be entered into with Michigan City, to improve safety and efficiency on a two-mile stretch of the railroad that runs through the city.

The NICTD decision last Friday moves forward a project that has been discussed for some 10 years, according to Barbara Huston, NICTD board secretary. Huston, La Porte County Commission president, and Mark Yagelski, La Porte County councilman, represent the county on the board.

Oberlie sees the NICTD plan as a positive move for North End redevelopment and he's ready to get it done. He said some federal grants for the project will be available in September. Gerald Hanas, NICTD general manager, said more than one federal grant will be needed to fund the effort, which is expected to take seven to eight years to complete.

Safety was a major factor in the NICTD planning process. New federal regulations require railroads to enhance their safety systems by 2015.

The NICTD plan calls for closing the 11th Street and Carroll Avenue stations and creating a new station with an elevated platform at 11th and Washington streets. The number of street crossings would be reduced from 34 to 17. An 800-vehicle parking lot would serve riders from throughout La Porte County and adjacent areas. Increases in South Shore ridership have created parking problems at the 11th Street and Carroll Avenue stations.

If approved by Michigan City and federal officials, NICTD will spend approximately $15.6 million of the total funding to acquire property along the south side of 10th and 11th streets, creating a fenced off east-west corridor that separates the South Shore from cars.

"Property acquisition will be the big thing," Huston said.

The Michigan City stretch of the South Shore line is the most expensive to maintain and requires "extremely slow speeds," Hanas said. He expects the improvements to shave some six minutes off travel times.

The mayor said the embedded tracks have created additional expenses for the city as well. Streets normally have a 15-to 20-year life span, he said, but 11th Street needs work after eight to 10 years.

The South Shore has operated for 100 years, but the long-standing placement of the tracks is no longer the best option.

"People outside the city are shocked when they see the train coming down the middle of the street," Oberlie said.

Earlier information indicated NICTD was considering moving the South Shore line either south, next to Ames Field, or north on the Amtrak route. In a six-month, privately funded study, consultants in the fields of economic development and urban planning looked at the potential for all three routes to contribute to what they call "transportation-oriented development," meaning areas where people live, work, shop and play within walking distance of a transportation station. They indicated the 11th Street corridor has significant potential, but is farther from the lake and at the southern end of the downtown area.

However, the NICTD officials who attended the public meetings convened by the consultants consistently indicated they preferred to redevelop the 11th Street corridor.

Rich Murphy, 1st Ward city councilman, believes the South Shore study along with several North End redevelopment plans have allowed residents to understand the opportunities.

"NICTD'S commitment to this project is a huge step toward our vision of a vibrant, bustling downtown Michigan City," Murphy said. "We've said all along that to do something great, there would need to be a spirit of cooperation between NICTD and the city."

Hanas said the La Porte County representatives on the NICTD board felt the studies needed to end.

"They felt like the path of studying route alternatives was continuing ad infinitum and needed to be brought to a logical conclusion," Hanas said.

He said NICTD has worked with an engineering firm for the past few months to develop preliminary drawings. Initial plans call for one new track to be installed, with room for a second track in the future.

Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=39931.61

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Residents react to new plans for South Shore

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Al Henckel has owned and operated Al's Shoe Repair Service, 1115 Franklin St., for 54 years, outlasting his competition.

The 78-year-old isn't concerned about the century old building being knocked down and made into a parking lot for Michigan City's South Shore station because he doesn't plan to be in business in 2015.

That's the federally mandated deadline for removing the South Shore commuter train tracks from the middle of 11th Street. Under a proposed plan to revamp the South Shore's route through Michigan City, a 775-vehicle parking lot would knock out a mix of businesses, privately-owned homes, rental housing and a service organization.

The Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District released a map labeled "Preliminary Downtown Reroute Concept" to The News-Dispatch on Monday. It designates a parking area between Wabash Street on the west and Franklin Street on the east, and from Warren Street on the south to just below 11th Street on the north.

Henckel doesn't like the plan, but said, "I don't think it will get off the ground."

"There are going to be a lot who don't want to move," Henckel said. "I really don't think it's going to help anything. They say it will bring a lot of business, but that remains to be seen."

The area slated for removal has a number of rundown and abandoned properties surrounded by well-maintained residences. Two homeowners in the affected area are taking a wait-and-see attitude until they find out more specifics.

David Hullinger, 1208 Washington St., was mowing the lawn of his well-tended yard Tuesday. Next door is an unoccupied, boarded-up building. Hullinger said he doesn't really know what the South Shore plans to do, but he's willing to sell the house he's lived in since 1992.

"We like our house and all that, but the city isn't doing anything about the boarded-up houses," Hullinger said.

Nacho Serrano, 221 Greene St., said he's not happy about the South Shore parking-lot plans, but doesn't mind selling his house "for the right price."

"I'm not going to talk until I know more," he said.

At The Salvation Army at Greene and Franklin streets, Maj. Brian Burkett and DeNita Ton, community services director, seemed stunned to see the map showing The Salvation Army within the parking-lot area.

"I'm shocked," Ton said. "I had no idea we were in jeopardy."

The Salvation Army invested $1.2 million in its facility some six years ago and wants to remain within the city's highest need neighborhood. Ton notes about 750 families are fed from The Salvation Army's food pantry each month.

"There are a lot less fortunate folks all around us," Ton said of the service organization's location.

Ton is nostalgic about the old 11th Street train station and wanted to see it reopened, while Burkett favors change that means progress for the city.

"Certainly, anything that can be done to improve the economic future of the city is a positive," he said. "Anything that can improve our clients' ability to get transportation to Chicago or South Bend is a positive thing."

Bob Weber, who operates Weber Group Realty out of his home, 1316 Wabash St., at the corner of William Street, is further south from the parking area, but close enough to be impacted by added noise and traffic. He sees the potential economic benefits that would come with an updated South Shore operation.

"If Michigan City is going to move forward, transportation is one of the issues, along with wages and the workforce," Weber said. "The South Shore expansion would give an opportunity for people to live here and get to places that have jobs."

As a Realtor, he said, updated South Shore service would have a potential benefit for real-estate sales.

"A house in Chicago one mile from the lake is $500,000 to $2 million," Weber said. "You can live here a mile from the lake for $90,000 to $100,000.

q

Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.
Southsider2k12
Many folks showed up last night at the Planning Commission meeting with questions about this project. Unfortunately unless there are re-zoning proposals made, that body won't see anything to do with this.

http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...ArticleID=24131

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NICTD: Questions will be answered

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - The Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District's recently released plan to reroute the South Shore railroad through Michigan City was developed over the last few years in close collaboration with Michigan City Mayor Chuck Oberlie.

That's according to John Parsons, marketing manager for NICTD, who acknowledged Monday the plan is creating some controversy among Michigan City residents because of unanswered questions.

"We are anxious to begin engineering this project to answer these very questions," Parsons said.

NICTD intended to meet with the city council at its June 16 meeting. Oberlie said that meeting was postponed until after the team of consultants issued its final economic impact report on three possible transit routes. First Ward councilman Rich Murphy believes the economic impact assessment will help Michigan City residents make an informed decision about the NICTD proposal.

"It's extremely relevant to this issue," Murphy said. "We have a report pending that will cite in more detail the economic impact of each location."

Both Oberlie and Murphy said the public will have plenty of opportunities to weigh in on the South Shore plans.

"I think the message is the public will be very much involved in this process," Murphy said. "Michigan City needs to look at this and decide how they're going to respond."

Oberlie said alternatives will be evaluated as the plans move forward. As an example, he mentioned train station parking could end up as a two-level parking ramp rather than surface parking, cutting in half the amount of land needed.

"There are many such issues that will be addressed through the engineering phase," Oberlie said.

Parsons said the NICTD plan aims to improve safety, passenger access and train operations.

"While it may be quaint, a modern passenger train or fully-loaded freight train has no business operating down the middle of 10th and 11th Street, mingling with parallel vehicle traffic at 34 grade crossings," Parsons said.

New federal regulations require railroads to adopt "positive train control" by 2015, referring to automated technology used to preventing train-to-train collisions, derailments and train movements through a switch left in the wrong position. Parsons said tracks embedded in the street can't be controlled with the advanced signal systems.

The rerouting will improve the potential for future economic development in downtown Michigan City, Parsons said. An up-to-date, accessible station will replace the two existing stations at 11th Street and Carroll Avenue.

Parsons said the realignment of the South Shore is a long process that will take city, state and federal cooperation to complete.

"Many questions will remain unanswered until we can undertake the appropriate engineering and environmental studies," Parsons said.

Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=44815.86

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The Issue:

Council calls for workshop, hearings on rail relocation.

Our Opinion:

The South Shore's parent agency should have shared the relocation plan with the public early on.
South Shore
City Council notes many questions

Editorial

More direct communication should have been provided by the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District to the dozens of homeowners, renters and businesses that would be displaced under preliminary plans to reroute the South Shore tracks.

The agency that runs the commuter service has penciled a lot of people out of their homes without giving them the courtesy of a visit, call or letter advising them that their property might be acquired and cleared. The NICTD board recently approved seeking an agreement with the City of Michigan City to proceed with this major project, which has an estimated pricetag of $65 million. It was done at a public meeting, but the people affected should have been given a heads up.

This week some members of the Michigan City Common Council called for a workshop with NICTD and public hearings. NICTD says the plan has been in the works for 10 years, but certainly in that period it could have found time to give people a chance to study the details and find out what the future holds.

As Third Ward Councilman Ron Meer said in a news story today, "There's been little or no communication with this body of these recent issues. When and where are the public hearings? What's the land acquisition process? There are a lot of questions we know nothing about."

The proposed relocation of South Shore tracks would wipe out a row of homes along the south side of 11th Street, plus more homes west of that to the city limits. It would cut off 17 of 34 street crossings of the South Shore, reducing north-south traffic routes.

We are hopeful the public will have ample opportunity to review the plans and have their concerns heard before this is finalized, but the way the process began didn't adequately inform the people of Michigan City.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=39849.31

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Touting another South Shore option
City natives reveal their suggestions

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Some longtime Michigan City residents are railing against the new route proposed for the South Shore commuter line. Instead, they're touting a North End route with an intermodal transportation center.

City natives John Vail, 87, and Fred Miller, 78, are making their case on the Web site www.michigancitysnewnorthend.com and with a video presentation they're taking to service clubs. Their plan would create an elevated north-end route along the Amtrak line, with the South Shore rails running parallel over a 16-foot-high bridge across Franklin Street to an elevated intermodal station at the north end of Wabash Street near the former depot now occupied by Swingbelly's Restaurant.

The tracks would run on a 45-foot-high bridge replacing the swing bridge over Trail Creek. Another 16-foot-high overpass would be built over U.S. 12 to take the South Shore down toward the Carroll Avenue station, which would be phased out. More details are shown on a map posted on the Web site.

"It's a given that this (North End) is where people want to be," Vail said, "with access to the beach, the Lighthouse mall and the casino."

Miller agreed, saying, "It would drop visitors off and pick them up where they want to be."

Miller remembers when hundreds of out-of-town visitors came to Michigan City on the South Shore on the weekend.

"They walked to the beach with their ice chest and beach paraphernalia," he said. "That worked in the 1930s, but people are used to cars now."

The two men believe their route is preferable to the one suggested by the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District for several reasons:

• Reduced number of grade crossings within city limits.

• Proximity to attractions such as the outlet mall, Blue Chip, museums, marinas and Washington Park beach and zoo.

• Cleared, shovel-ready land is immediately available for commercial and residential development.

• An intermodal station would interface with city and inter-city buses, Amtrak, proposed water transportation, U.S. 12 and a revitalized Michigan Boulevard.

They said the plan would be advantageous to the railroads as well as to transportation-oriented development of new housing and retail shops.

The critical part is replacing the swing bridge on Trail Creek, Vail said, to improve rail speed as well as remove an obstacle for boaters.

"A bridge at the water level is no good," he said. "The Amtrak would love to get rid of that."

Both men look forward to getting the final report from a team of economic development and urban planning consultants that evaluated the economic impacts of three possible South Shore routes. Based on an earlier report, the northern route was most likely to have the greatest economic impact for Michigan City, but also had the most challenges because of the swing bridge. The 11th Street route has significant potential, they said, but is farther from the lake and at the southern end of downtown.

Vail and Miller cite 10 reasons NICTD shouldn't use the 11th Street route. A considerable amount of property would have to be purchased, they noted, and nearby property values would go down. Some north-south routes through the city would be closed off, dividing the city, and the 15 grade crossings that would remain would pose safety issues. The 11th Street station doesn't have the advantage of linking to main highways, they said.

Vail said their proposal was sent to John Parsons, marketing manager for NICTD, but it didn't seem to make a difference.

"They don't like people upsetting their plans," Vail said.

Vail and Miller believe their proposal can be funded, and they suggest specific funding sources on the Web site. One possibility, they said, was Obama's proposal to spend $9 billion on a high-speed rail system across the nation.

Both men are disappointed by the lack of public comment about the NICTD plan for rerouting the South Shore, and said people seem to be apathetic. And they'd like city officials be more proactive.

"We should be calling the shots a little bit about what happens in Michigan City," Vail said.

Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.
IndyTransplant

I believe I had read in earlier threads that the North End existing tracks do not belong to NICTD which would require them to lease from Amtrak (?) and alter schedules. Also by locating the tracks that far north you are abandoning the prospects of attracting more businesses to the old town area between 11th and 4th. Not everyone who rides the train to and from MC wants to go just to the beach. I believe the casino runs shuttles from the train stations and hotels now so that is not an issue. I know they run a shuttle from the train station as I have friends who use it often. Maybe MC or local entrepreneurs should look into running shuttles to the beach, park, mall, museums etc.

There are several locally owned businesses in the old town close to 11th now that rely on the train passengers.
I hate to think we are so willing to abandon them.

Anyway that is my opinion at this moment.
Southsider2k12
http://www.emichigancity.com/news.htm#SouthShore

QUOTE

City News


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Coffee with Mayor Oberlie


Workshop To Be Held On SouthShore Line

Mayor Chuck Oberlie and 1st Ward Councilman Richard Murphy today announced a community workshop on the SouthShore Line upgrade and transit oriented development opportunity for Michigan City.

Mr. Stu Sirota of TND Planning Group Consultant that recently completed the study on the economic benefits of transit oriented development associated with the SouthShore Line realignment options will serve as the facilitator.

The workshop will provide the first meaningful opportunity for the public dialogue about the SouthShore upgrades and associated transit oriented development opportunities. The workshop will also provide the best available information about proposed changes to the SouthShore Line and explore specific opportunities around a new proposed station.

John Parsons will represent the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District (NICTD) at the workshop. Mr. Parsons noted: “We are looking forward to the workshop on July 29th. It will give us an opportunity to meet with the community and share our thoughts on why we selected the 10th/11st Street corridor, what is prompting our decision to realign the railroad and what we expect to achieve. Equally important, the workshop will begin to lay the foundation for a cooperative planning process that will enhance development opportunities within the corridor.”

And, perhaps most importantly, the workshop will provide a much needed opportunity for residents to discuss their concerns and hopes.

Councilman Richard Murphy added, “The purpose of the workshop is to create a baseline of understanding to build trust among the public and to create a foundation on which to build a continuing transparent process leading to the successful implementation of a final project.”

The workshop will be held on Wednesday, July 29, 2009, at 6:30 p.m. in the Council Chambers at the Michigan City City Hall.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=39802.23

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City will host workshop on South Shore upgrade
MICHIGAN CITY - Mayor Chuck Oberlie and 1st Ward Councilman Richard Murphy announced Thursday a community workshop on the proposed South Shore Line upgrade.

The workshop will be held at 6:30 p.m. Wednesday, July 29, in the Council Chambers at City Hall.

Stu Sirota of TND Planning Group Consultants, which recently completed the study on the economic benefits of transit-oriented development associated with the South Shore Line realignment options, will serve as the facilitator.

The workshop will provide an opportunity for public dialogue about the South Shore upgrades and associated transit oriented development opportunities, Oberlie and Murphy said in a news release. The workshop also will provide the best available information about proposed changes to the South Shore Line and explore specific opportunities around a new proposed station.

John Parsons will represent the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District at the workshop.

"It will give us an opportunity to meet with the community and share our thoughts on why we selected the 10th/11th Street corridor, what is prompting our decision to realign the railroad and what we expect to achieve," Parsons said. "Equally important, the workshop will begin to lay the foundation for a cooperative planning process that will enhance development opportunities within the corridor."

The workshop will provide an opportunity for residents to discuss their concerns and hopes.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=40159.62

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Alternate route
Residents propose moving railroad north

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - John and Karen Vander Wagen found their home in Michigan City by accident. According to John, they missed the turn for Lighthouse Place Premium Outlets and headed toward Washington Park. They followed Lake Shore Drive and were amazed to find so many attractive lakeside homes.

"A week later, we bought it (the house)," John Vander Wagen said. After years of spending weekends here, the couple now lives here full-time.

Vander Wagen has joined forces with others who strongly believe that people need to see the city's location on Lake Michigan in order to want to visit or live here. On Sunday, Vander Wagen joined Leigh Coburn, Lou Hapke and Fred Miller in a discussion about the advantages of relocating the South Shore commuter rail north, parallel to the Amtrak route, rather than realigning its present route through town.

"I think most of us have a passion for this thing because we think the 11th Street plan would be bad for Michigan City," Miller said.

The "It's (Y)our Government Group" is trying to heighten public awareness of ways the NICTD proposal could impact Michigan City for decades ahead. And they are encouraging others to keep informed and make their opinions known.

When the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District announced its realignment plan on June 9, the group was amazed to learn the NICTD plan had been in the works for 10 years. They hadn't heard anything about it during conversations with John Parsons, NICTD communications director, and Henry Lampe, chief executive of South Shore Freight.

NICTD's plan would remove about 150 residences and buildings on 11th Street from the path of a new South Shore route. Vander Wagen has calculated these properties represent more than $8.6 million in assessed property values and a loss of some $149,500 in property tax revenue, since railroads are exempt from paying property taxes.

NICTD's proposal calls for closing 17 crossings and acquiring four square blocks for station parking. The northern route proponents say this will cut Michigan City into two parts at 11th Street, from Sheridan Avenue on the west to Michigan Boulevard on the east. For safety, the tracks will be fenced off. Leigh Coburn, who photographed rusty fences and accumulated trash along the South Shore tracks in Gary, Ind., in June, does not want to see that happen in Michigan City.

"I can't imagine the devastation that will occur if we have fences such as these running our city's entire length," Coburn said. "There will be lots of promises made concerning aesthetically pleasing fences and maintenance promises, but these pictures show the real history and results of NICTD fences."

Not only do the fences look bad, Coburn said, they also split up existing neighborhoods.

"How many kids on the south side of 11th Street play with kids on the north side of 11th Street?" Coburn asked. "It will cut neighborhoods in half."

Lou Hapke said their designed northern train route would make use of existing tracks once used by the Nickel Plate railroad, which once extended from Michigan City to La Porte and to Indianapolis. The costliest part of their plan would be creating an elevated track along the Amtrak line, with the South Shore rails running parallel over a 16-foot-high bridge across Franklin Street to an elevated intermodal station at the north end of Wabash Street, near the former depot now occupied by Swingbelly's Restaurant. The tracks would run on a 45-foot-high bridge replacing the swing bridge over Trail Creek.

"I think the important thing is to get it (swing bridge) redone to elevate it," Hapke said.

Hapke said not many buildings - residential or commercial - would have to be removed to accommodate the proposed northern route. And an elevated rail would give people "a bird's eye view" of the lakeshore.

"How many people go through our city and don't know we're on the lake?" Coburn asked. "We sincerely hope the mayor and city council will look very closely at what we believe is a seriously faulted proposal."

Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.
Dave
QUOTE
The tracks would run on a 45-foot-high bridge replacing the swing bridge over Trail Creek.



I suspect it will be found that building that bridge is going to make the $65 million look like pocket change.

I do think that the idea of fencing the tracks is rather annoying. Heck, they run down the middle of an active street now, what's the need for fencing?
Southsider2k12
QUOTE(southsider2k9 @ Jul 16 2009, 02:49 PM) *


Don't forget the workshop is tomorrow (Wed) at 6:30pm! This is going to be a huge topic in the near future, so get your voice heard now, before it is too late!!!
mcstumper
Hmmm. I'll be out of town. Is this the first of many such workshops?

I have a thought for the whole 11th St. vs. North End debate. I am very pro-11th St (since the south route was taken off the table), but for those who think that we are missing out on potential tourist traffic by not running the tracks north, why not build a trolley line that runs from the new station to the old depot (Swingbellies). NICTD has said the 11th St. project would provide a right of way wide enough for double-tracking, but that they would not initially want to do so. That means a second track could be laid from the new station west to the Amtrak tracks. It could run along the east side of the Amtrak tracks (without crossing them), and run north to the depot. A stop could also be added for the Lighthouse Mall. I envision this being operated during the summer months (and maybe just to the Lighthouse Mall from Thanksgiving to Christmas) by a private not for profit.

While this may seem far-fetched, remember that there was a group that was organized which wanted to build a trolley from Michigan City to Mount Baldy. Norfolk Southern Railroad gifted that group all of the track that was ripped up when the Nickle Plate line over the Peanut Bridge was abandoned a decade ago. I hear that that rail is still being stored in a warehouse on the city's west side.
Southsider2k12
QUOTE(mcstumper @ Jul 28 2009, 09:37 PM) *

Hmmm. I'll be out of town. Is this the first of many such workshops?

I have a thought for the whole 11th St. vs. North End debate. I am very pro-11th St (since the south route was taken off the table), but for those who think that we are missing out on potential tourist traffic by not running the tracks north, why not build a trolley line that runs from the new station to the old depot (Swingbellies). NICTD has said the 11th St. project would provide a right of way wide enough for double-tracking, but that they would not initially want to do so. That means a second track could be laid from the new station west to the Amtrak tracks. It could run along the east side of the Amtrak tracks (without crossing them), and run north to the depot. A stop could also be added for the Lighthouse Mall. I envision this being operated during the summer months (and maybe just to the Lighthouse Mall from Thanksgiving to Christmas) by a private not for profit.

While this may seem far-fetched, remember that there was a group that was organized which wanted to build a trolley from Michigan City to Mount Baldy. Norfolk Southern Railroad gifted that group all of the track that was ripped up when the Nickle Plate line over the Peanut Bridge was abandoned a decade ago. I hear that that rail is still being stored in a warehouse on the city's west side.


They have not mentioned any more forums, but I imagine it will be up to the public to demand more info. NICTD is going to try to get by with giving out as little controversial info as possible.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=39992.15

QUOTE
Breakout groups discuss key elements of South Shore relocation

Deborah Sederberg
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - More than 150 people attended a meeting Wednesday evening to discuss the relocation of South Shore tracks.

While John Parsons, planning and marketing manager of the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District, said he and Gerald Hanas, NICTD general manager, were there to hear from the community, no one should expect to hear a lot of answers at the meeting.

"This is just the beginning of the process," he said. Answers will be forthcoming.

Stu Sirota, principal in the TND Planning Group of Baltimore, which has been working with Michigan City on transit issues, facilitated the meeting at which about 30 people were sitting in folding chairs in the vestibule outside City Council chambers because all 112 seats in the meeting room were filled. Another 15 people lined one wall in the meeting room.

Sirota too said he was looking for questions and concerns but the project is a long way from completion.

NICTD's proposal calls for closing the 11th Street and Carroll Avenue stations and building a new station at 11th and Washington streets. The plan would require acquiring property along the south side of 10th and 11th streets.

Sirota said other possibilities discussed over the years include moving tracks north to the AMTRAK tracks or south to the CSX tracks near Ames Field.

Those in attendance adjourned to the city's all-purpose room to discuss in smaller groups a variety of concerns ranging from historic district issues to dividing one part of the community from the rest of the city if 11th Street were to be closed.

Others worried about traffic during rush hour.

Julie Manner, who spoke for one group of people, talked about historic issues and expressed the hope that "you would preserve something of the old (South Shore) station." She also expressed the need for pedestrian-friendly areas near the new station and perhaps historic lighting.

Lou Hapke spoke to the issue of street closings. He has concerns about how well emergency vehicles will be able to negotiate new traffic patterns.

Parsons said the two miles of tracks embedded in the pavement in Michigan City's streets are NICTD's two most expensive miles of track because they are expensive to maintain.

Street maintenance around the tracks is expensive for the city as well.

"We would like to support the 10th and 11th streets corridor," Mayor Chuck Oberlie said. He hopes the City Council will support that plan as well.

"A key element in advancing the project and securing federal funding to support further analysis is the cooperation and support of the city," Parsons said.
Southsider2k12
For those who are interested, ALCO has the video of the workshop up on their website, thanks to them!

http://www.alco.org/index.php/alco-tv/82-s...-shore-workshop
Southsider2k12
I actually just caught the end of Part II of the workshop on ALCO 97, and I saw a few familiar faces on there. Dave, Greg, you guys have anything impressions you want to share from the meeting? I'd be curious to hear from the people who were actually there first.
Dave
As for the format of the workshop, all I can say is that I don't operate optimally in that kind of format. I grouped with the people concerned about Historic Preservation, as that's sort of my thing at the moment.

One point that has to be made is that this presentation was NOT presented by NICTD. The workshop was presented by Mr. Sirota on behalf of the city, and the NITCD officials weren't there to answer questions, but rather to listen to what people were saying. More on this anon*.

As for NICTD's proposal, essentially it involves moving the tracks about 50 feet south for most of the length of 11th street. While I can see from the map (which does not appear to be available online, at least I couldn't find it), it would involve demolition of what could easily be the maximum possible number of homes and other buildings, including a church, which strikes me as being unnecessary. If NICTD's concern is getting the tracks out of the asphalt, one would think that by essentially giving them 11th street so they could remove the asphalt, that would solve the problem.

However, as far as I can tell, if they are going to tear out a new right of way fifty feet south of 11th, they no longer need 11th street, so why close it? The issues involved in closing some grade crossings would remain, but if they aren't going to run in 11th, what do they need it for?

NICTD seems to want to remove a couple of curves that reduce train speed through town, which could explain their desire for the new track route. Of course they could be looking at the issue strickly as engineers, who very well might want to run the rails in as straight a line as possible, ignoring the toll it would have on the city. They also proposed sacrificing at least two entire city blocks downtown to street level parking, which I have on some authority would be a deal breaker from the city government's point of view (thank god! It would look the the asphalt lake at East Chicago.)

*After looking at the "preliminary proposal" for a while, and unfortunately after the session was over, I had the thought that the "preliminary proposal" may very well be something somewhat different than what I initially thought it was. This may very well be due to the simple fact that I have grown over the years to be suspicious, but bear with me for my thought process a bit.

When entering into a negotiation (which is what this whole matter really is), different entities have different approaches. If I want A, B, and C, I normally say "I want A, B, and C," make my case, and if the other party doesn't agree, I endeavor to make them see the sweet right of reason (as I always take reasonable positions biggrin.gif ). A different approach taken by some folks who desire A, B, and C, is to say, "I want A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K L, M, and N," figuring they can back off on D through N and still get what they want. One example of this most people can identify with is buying a car -- the dealer's first price isn't generally his bottom line, it's just the point where he starts from.

My perception is that NICTD's "preliminary proposal" is their A though N, their beginning bargaining position. Supposedly their main concern isn't straightening out curves, but meeting federal guidelines for what's referred to as "positive track control," a safety system which entails sending electronic signals though the rails to determine where the trains are exactly at all times, which I have been told is very difficult if not impossible to do with rails buried in asphalt in our climate (snow, salt, rain, etc., causing problems with the signaling.) Essentially giving them 11th street so they could tear up the asphalt encasing the rails presumably would cure the "positive track control" issue, but they may be approaching this negotiation with additional items on their wish list so they can give up the additional items and appear to be bargaining in good faith.

I might be overly suspicious of the motives of NICTD, but these are the same folks who said a couple of years back that the move to Ame's Field was a "done deal," so I don't think that viewing their initial "proposal" skeptically is out of line.

[Dennis Miller] ...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. [/Dennis Miller]
joe.black
If anyone wants a quick once-over of what NICTD management is thinking, feel free to read the interview "stickied" to the first page of this web site.
Dave
QUOTE(joe.black @ Aug 3 2009, 08:21 PM) *

If anyone wants a quick once-over of what NICTD management is thinking, feel free to read the interview "stickied" to the first page of this web site.


And here's a link to that thread:

http://www.citybythelake.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2300

Joe, if the new pathway for the NICTD rails is going to be where it's shown in the proposal, why does anything have to be done with 11th street? It appears to my untrained eye that the tracks would no longer be in the street, so why not leave the street alone (other than removing the tracks)?

Alternatively, if NICTD has the entire width of 11th street to use for a rail bed, why would it be necessary to tear down all those houses, other than to straighten out a couple of curves? It seems to me that the "rails in asphalt" issue would be taken care of.

As for a new station, is there a compelling reason to not use the old station? And as to having adequate parking, is there a compelling reason why a huge street level parking lot is superior to a multi-level structure (such as those seen in the Andrews and other studies)? I understand there may be additional cost, but unless the additional cost is astronomical, I personally don't find that reason compelling.

And one more question, regarding the additional cost of rails in asphalt-- how many years of the extra expense of the rails in asphalt would $65 million pay for?

And on a personal note, are you still affliated with NICTD? I thought I heard you had moved on to another employment situation. If you're still in Michigan City, I owe you a poster...
joe.black
QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 3 2009, 07:53 PM) *

And here's a link to that thread:

http://www.citybythelake.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2300

Joe, if the new pathway for the NICTD rails is going to be where it's shown in the proposal, why does anything have to be done with 11th street? It appears to my untrained eye that the tracks would no longer be in the street, so why not leave the street alone (other than removing the tracks)?

Alternatively, if NICTD has the entire width of 11th street to use for a rail bed, why would it be necessary to tear down all those houses, other than to straighten out a couple of curves? It seems to me that the "rails in asphalt" issue would be taken care of.


The plan, as far as it had gotten before I left (which was a painful decision for me, but necessary as the relocation just didn't work out) was to leave a lane of 11th Street open (the north lane). In order to get the necessary real estate (figuratively speaking) to fit 2 trackways plus ancillary infrastructure such as catenary structures, signals and signal huts, and so forth, it was calculated that the south lane, sidewalk, and one lot into 11th Street, on the south side, would be necessary (not the entire lot, but it's impossible to buy some fraction of a lot, if your ultimate goal is to build something else entirely on it, for obvious reasons). If 11th Street were to simply be closed completely, I'm not sure that that would provide enough space or not (I don't have the necessary street dimension data in front of me), but I suspect that it would be. However - the plan, which the city seemed to want, was to keep one lane of 11th Street open. That's what has led us to this place.

QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 3 2009, 07:53 PM) *
As for a new station, is there a compelling reason to not use the old station? And as to having adequate parking, is there a compelling reason why a huge street level parking lot is superior to a multi-level structure (such as those seen in the Andrews and other studies)? I understand there may be additional cost, but unless the additional cost is astronomical, I personally don't find that reason compelling.


NICTD no longer owns the old station, which I understand has been virtually gutted on the inside. Also, north of 11th Street is the historic district, making any substantial work there more costly, more involved, and more trouble, plain and simple. It would not be cost effective on a dollar or time basis to try to design and build something with all of the modern amenities that NICTD envisions without making substantial changes, which run right up against something you're familiar with - the historic district.

As for the parking - NICTD would, if the 11th Street corridor is built, close the station at Carroll Avenue. The District would very much like to be able to provide passengers with the parking they need right now, and will likely need in the future. Although demand is off slightly this year mostly due to the economic downturn, the long term trend is solidly up. That's why it was projected that so much land would be needed for parking. I don't think that anything in the NICTD plan, though, necessarily precludes a multi-level parking structure (in fact, the economic development folks thought that would be a good idea). You're right that it would be more costly, but I don't know what the incremental cost of that would be versus a flat parking lot.

QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 3 2009, 07:53 PM) *
And one more question, regarding the additional cost of rails in asphalt-- how many years of the extra expense of the rails in asphalt would $65 million pay for?


Unfortunately, I don't have the "broken out" figures in front of me that show mile for mile where the most expensive to maintain segments are, and what the per-mile costs are, but the street running section by far outpaces any other segmentin terms of maintenance cost. In addition - and you had alluded to this in an earlier post - the cost of not implementing Positive Train Control (PTC) by 2015 could be as serious as an embargo of service. The Feds could, conceivably, shut the South Shore down through the FRA if it's not in compliance. I doubt they'd take that drastic step, but everything up to and including complete shutdown is in their arsenal. Since the state of the rails is never good in the asphalt, it's very difficult to install and maintain a working PTC system in street running track of the kind that runs down 11th & 10th Streets.


QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 3 2009, 07:53 PM) *
And on a personal note, are you still affliated with NICTD? I thought I heard you had moved on to another employment situation. If you're still in Michigan City, I owe you a poster...


As I've already said, I had to make the very painful decision to leave NICTD and the area, which I had grown to love. There may be a time in the future when my family situation and the economic situation will have changed such that I could return, but that would be at NICTD's pleasure, obviously.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=70457.81

QUOTE
Residents need timeline on South Shore relocation
I attended the South Shore workshop. I am a homeowner of a home to be purchased. I was hoping for information regarding a timeline of purchases of our homes. Will it be months or years or weeks? If it is months or weeks we homeowners need to begin looking for new homes.

While I am willing to sell my home I would like to have time to look for a replacement and would like to know the timeline in case I find a home I'd like to bid on. The meeting answered no questions for us. We did write down our questions and were told they'd be answered at the next meeting. They gave no idea when that will be. We did hear that the plans had to be submitted in 2010, had to be completed by 2015 and it was a five- to six-year project. I have also heard the first federal money will be given in September of this year.

This makes me believe it will be months rather than years.

So come on NITCD, give me a timeline. How long do I have? What kind of offer are you going to make on our homes? Do you have to follow the Federal Uniform Relocation Act guidelines? When will the next meeting be and will it actually give us information? Or will it just be to placate those who have complaints?

I have no problem with the acquisition of my house, just would like to know when you will be making your offer!

Carolyn Pryor

Michigan City
IndyTransplant
QUOTE(southsider2k9 @ Aug 6 2009, 06:35 PM) *




I had heard through the grapevine of at least one person who had already sold their home or at least come to an agreement. I cannot say for sure if if it is true, but thought I would mention it.

IndyTransplant
Thanks for posting that Southsider. Gave it a quick read and will go over more carefullly over the weekend. Will admit that there is personal interest in the plans since we will be living closer to downtown very soon.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...ArticleID=25136

QUOTE
NICTD says no to north route idea
Concept proposed by group of concerned citizens.

Dave Hawk and Laurie Wink
Staff Writers

MICHIGAN CITY - The agency that runs the South Shore commuter service is not considering the northerly route proposed by a group of concerned citizens, a spokesman said Wednesday.

The plans for a northerly route call for an elevated station and a new bridge extending over Trail Creek and Franklin Street on a route that would serve both the South Shore and Amtrak. It would be accomplished in conjunction with replacing an existing swing bridge over the creek used by Amtrak.

The costs of such a project would be too high, said John Parsons, Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District planning and marketing manager. He has been quoted as saying the northerly route would cost $200 million, compared with an estimated $65 million for rebuilding the route along the 11th and 10th streets corridor where it now travels.

"What we're talking about (with the northern route) is a bridge and a station to be constructed above grade," Parsons said. "Bridges increase long-term maintenance and capital costs, and so do elevated stations because of the mere fact of requiring elevators and escalators."

Also, working on tracks adjacent to Amtrak would pose "a series of operational issues," Parsons said.

Meanwhile, the concerned citizens group hopes to enlist the help of Indiana's U.S. senators, Richard Lugar and Evan Bayh, and the local congressman, U.S. Rep. Joe Donnelly, to see if they can urge Amtrak to work with NICTD so the two passenger services can share the same corridor through the north end of Michigan City.

Group member Fred Miller said while the north route is more costly, its costs should be looked at over the decades that a new track would be used, and that federal economic stimulus money may be available in the near future for upgrading the local Amtrak route to a high-speed rail line, necessitating replacement of the bridge over Trail Creek.

Those advocating the north route say it would generate greater redevelopment of the North End than keeping the South Shore along 11th and 10th streets, and that tearing down some 150 houses and a few businesses as proposed by NICTD would reduce the city's tax base by more than $8 million in assessed valuation, costing the city property tax revenue.

Moreover, they say that closing most cross streets, as the NICTD plan proposes, would divide Michigan City with an ugly chain link fence.

NICTD, however, has furnished pictures showing the new South Shore track, built along the south side of 11th and 10th streets, would look like the landscaped areas along the North Shore Metra line in the north Chicago suburbs.

The proposed South Shore rail realignment on 11th and 10th streets is subject of a pending agreement between the city and NICTD.

Mayor Chuck Oberlie said the memorandum of understanding will not be developed until consultant Stu Sirota, of TND Planning Group in Baltimore, gives a report on issues raised July 29 at a public meeting. The approximately 150 attendees broke into smaller groups to address specific aspects of a proposed relocation of South Shore tracks and submitted group reports.

"The consultants are preparing a report that will address questions that were brought forward," Oberlie said. "Once the report is complete, another public discussion will take place."

Following that, the City Council will address the memorandum of understanding, the mayor said.

City Council President Bob McKee, D-At-large, said Wednesday he does not know when the memorandum will be passed to the council for consideration. At that point, McKee said, the matter may be referred to a council committee for review before coming to the full council as a resolution.

"I don't think this is going to drag out until January or February," McKee said, "but I think some of these questions need to be answered."

A big unanswered question for McKee is what the city's share of the cost would be.

"Is our share going to be $100,000 or $5 million? The costs I've heard are all over the board," McKee said.

"In my mind, we have two routes to chose from. I can see positives and negatives on both sides of this."

Parsons said cooperation from the city is needed to move forward with the project. A memorandum of understanding with the city would help secure federal grant funding for a preliminary engineering design and then an environmental impact study. Public hearings would be held in Michigan City during the environmental impact phase of the project, Parsons said.

"We would like the cooperation of the city," Parsons said. "We certainly hope we will get it."

NICTD needs to remove the track from the center of the roadway on 11th and 10th street to solve operating problems, in the most cost-effective way, Parsons said. With a revitalized South Shore line along 10th and 11th streets, he added, "Michigan City has a unique opportunity to further develop the lakefront with an Amtrak corridor development and with our project."

Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...&TM=35807.4

QUOTE
Where's outrage over South Shore plan?
It's interesting that NICTD needs to give The News-Dispatch a picture of a train station and fencing belonging to the North Shore Metra Line north of Chicago. The other pictures they show during their presentation are from other U.S. cities and Europe.

NICTD has stations and fencing in several Indiana communities and the results are nothing like what they show during their presentations. The fences throughout Gary, Hammond and East Chicago are in disrepair, rusty, falling down, and full of weeds and trash.

If NICTD doesn't take care of what they are presently responsible for, why should Michigan City expect anything different? During Mr. Parsons' presentation he stated they would be reducing grade crossings throughout Michigan City from the present 34 to 17. The North End route has elevated crossings and the total number of grade crossings would be reduced to two. Where's the outrage from our citizens?

Not only will over 150 residences and businesses be displaced, but neighborhoods will be destroyed. Seven cross streets in a row going from Michigan Boulevard to Pine Street will be closed. Kids that live on the south side of 11th Street won't be able to walk across and play with friends on the north side. Kids on the north side of 11th Street won't be able to walk to Elston Middle School. On the west end of 11th Street many people who walk to St. Mary's Church and School as well as Marquette High School won't be able to get there because of the fences.

How about school buses and emergency vehicles? I could go on and on, but those who live in the neighborhoods know better than I how they will be affected.

If any neighborhood organizations, churches or service groups want to see our power point presentation concerning this subject or need help having their voice heard, please contact me at 879-7997.

Leigh Coburn

Michigan City
Dave
My question for the North End Routers is pretty simple -- where's the $200 million (that's the low estimate, more likely $450 million or more) to pay for the elevated bridge and approaches supposed to come from? Until they have a credible answer to that question, anything they say is just noise.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=2546.382

QUOTE
Northern route would block lake view
So much has been said and written in support of the "benefits" of moving the South Shore to the Amtrak route north of U.S. 12 that I was worried that NICTD might actually succumb to the pressure of people who have never spent any time sitting on the patio on the north side of Swingbelly's and contemplating the effect of a railroad embankment that, at that point, would be at least as high as their roof.

We have already cut downtown Michigan City off from the lake with a library. Do we really want to contemplate a further separation? I would think that we'd want to do things that pull the lake and the city closer rather than adding yet another obstacle.

Thank you, NICTD. Hang in there. Sanity will eventually prevail.

Sam Harnish

Michigan City

q

Editor's note: The group pushing for relocating the South Shore contends it could be built on an attractive elevated structure. Images of that proposal are at www.michigancitysnewnorthend.com
mcstumper
QUOTE(southsider2k9 @ Aug 17 2009, 11:43 PM) *

Northern route would block lake view
So much has been said and written in support of the "benefits" of moving the South Shore to the Amtrak route north of U.S. 12 that I was worried that NICTD might actually succumb to the pressure of people who have never spent any time sitting on the patio on the north side of Swingbelly's and contemplating the effect of a railroad embankment that, at that point, would be at least as high as their roof.

We have already cut downtown Michigan City off from the lake with a library. Do we really want to contemplate a further separation? I would think that we'd want to do things that pull the lake and the city closer rather than adding yet another obstacle.

Thank you, NICTD. Hang in there. Sanity will eventually prevail.

Sam Harnish

Michigan City

q

Editor's note: The group pushing for relocating the South Shore contends it could be built on an attractive elevated structure. Images of that proposal are at www.michigancitysnewnorthend.com


This guy is right on. A great political cartoon would show Joie Winski's crowd finally tearing down the library then turning around to admire the new view of Washington Park and the lake front; only to see this monstrosity in the way.

Its a commuter line. Sticking the station on the north end puts it farther away for the average MC citizen. And to think that in these peoples' minds, after all the work that has gone into clearing blight along Trail Creek, the best use for the most prime real estate in the city would be commuter parking lots.

As for the dual purpose rail station (South Shore & Amtrak), this ignores the fact that the Amtrak line between Porter, IN and New Buffalo, MI is redundant and represents nothing more that federal government waste. Think about this: Amtrak runs two different daily trains through Michigan City. One on its own line on the north end, and another on the CSX line that runs by Ames Field. These lines intersect in Porter and again in New Buffalo. If Amtrak and CSX would build a connecting track at their intersection in New Buffalo, 23 miles of unnecessary track, countless crossings, overpasses and a floating bridge could be eliminated. Amtrak is plum broke, but insists on paying for the maintenance on this track. Rip it out and rebuild the South Shore freight line across the old Peanut Bridge to connect to Criterion Catalysts for freight. Turn the Amtrak right of way into a 23 mile rail trail. Lets think rationally and economically about these issues and growth will follow.
JHeath
QUOTE(mcstumper @ Aug 18 2009, 10:17 PM) *

This guy is right on. A great political cartoon would show Joie Winski's crowd finally tearing down the library then turning around to admire the new view of Washington Park and the lake front; only to see this monstrosity in the way.

Its a commuter line. Sticking the station on the north end puts it farther away for the average MC citizen. And to think that in these peoples' minds, after all the work that has gone into clearing blight along Trail Creek, the best use for the most prime real estate in the city would be commuter parking lots.

As for the dual purpose rail station (South Shore & Amtrak), this ignores the fact that the Amtrak line between Porter, IN and New Buffalo, MI is redundant and represents nothing more that federal government waste. Think about this: Amtrak runs two different daily trains through Michigan City. One on its own line on the north end, and another on the CSX line that runs by Ames Field. These lines intersect in Porter and again in New Buffalo. If Amtrak and CSX would build a connecting track at their intersection in New Buffalo, 23 miles of unnecessary track, countless crossings, overpasses and a floating bridge could be eliminated. Amtrak is plum broke, but insists on paying for the maintenance on this track. Rip it out and rebuild the South Shore freight line across the old Peanut Bridge to connect to Criterion Catalysts for freight. Turn the Amtrak right of way into a 23 mile rail trail. Lets think rationally and economically about these issues and growth will follow.

I can tell you that Joie would not support moving the tracks further north, nor would she support what you deem "a monstrosity of a station." But, that's neither here nor there. She's not the one in office.
mcstumper
QUOTE(JHeath @ Aug 18 2009, 11:59 PM) *

I can tell you that Joie would not support moving the tracks further north, nor would she support what you deem "a monstrosity of a station." But, that's neither here nor there. She's not the one in office.


Sorry. I didn't mean to lump her in with the North End Relocationists... just as someone active in the movement to relocate the library and open Franklin St.
Dave
Fred Miller (from www.michigancitysnewnorthend.com) is going to give a powerpoint presentation of their plan at the Elston Grove Neighborhood Association meeting tonight at the IBEW Center (old Central School) at 7 p.m.

Non-members are welcome to attend.

I'm going to be there, and I anticipate asking a few questions myself.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...ArticleID=25248

QUOTE
Answers to S. Shore questions expected soon

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Questions about the South Shore realignment posed during a public workshop July 29 are expected to be answered by the end of the month.

Councilman Rich Murphy, D-1st Ward, told City Council members Tuesday a final report will be submitted at the end of August by Stu Sirota, of TND Planning Group. Sirota is categorizing the questions and forwarding them to the appropriate entities for answers, Murphy said, adding that some questions might not have answers right now.

The city and the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District partnered to bring Sirota in as the workshop facilitator. He has worked with the city on planning issues for two years, including the North End plan created by architectural students from Andrews University in 2007.

Some 150 local residents attended the public workshop, breaking into smaller groups to consider topics such as street closures, landscaping, railroad operations and right-of-way issues.

Council President Bob McKee, D-at-Large, presented a list at Tuesday's council meeting of questions he would like answered:

• What is the hard money cost to the city?

• What is the soft money cost (paving streets, working on sewer systems) and who pays it?

• Will the city be compensated for property taxes lost when parcels are purchased by NICTD?

• What type of station is proposed and who will pay for it?

• What landscaping and streetscaping is planned and who will provide it?

• Will there by guarantees on construction and continued maintenance so eyesores don't develop?

• Is a northern route conceivable in terms of NICTD's business plan?

McKee provided the list to Murphy, who said he would forward the questions to Sirota.

In other business, the council voted 9-0 to appoint Shandra Niswander to the Michigan City Animal Control Advisory Committee. Her term begins immediately and expires Jan. 1, 2012.

Representatives of the La Porte County Convention & Visitors Bureau presented a plaque from Superboat International to Mayor Chuck Oberlie in recognition of the city's support for the Aug. 7-9 Great Lakes Grand Prix event. CVB Sports Manager Jason Miller said all the participating drivers had "glowing reviews" of their treatment here.
joe.black
Critical questions to be answered by the north end folks include:

How are you going to get the Coast Guard to waive the bridge height requirement?

If they do waive it (allowing an essentially flat crossing of the creek), how does that affect the ability of boats to use that section of Trail Creek?

Is the north end route proposing to place NICTD's trains on Amtrak rails, under the control of Amtrak dispatchers?

If not, have they included the cost of separate tracks and facilities in the projected cost of the north end route? Also - will the new station have separate platforms for eastbound and westbound Amtrak and South Shore trains (in other words, 4 platform tracks)? If not, how do you propose to separate NICTD traffic from Amtrak?

How do they answer the assertion that an elevated railway will be a visual fence across the lakeshore, and diminish rather than enhance the city's connection to the lake?

Where is the extra funding for the north end route coming from? Don't say "stimulus" - that's a buzzword, and meaningless at this point. There's nothing about the north end route that is "shovel ready".
Dave
QUOTE(joe.black @ Aug 20 2009, 12:30 PM) *

Critical questions to be answered by the north end folks include:


From what I gathered at the meeting last night (note: I am not an advocate of the "north end plan"):

QUOTE
How are you going to get the Coast Guard to waive the bridge height requirement?

If they do waive it (allowing an essentially flat crossing of the creek), how does that affect the ability of boats to use that section of Trail Creek?


It was said that current regulations require clearance above water level to be 45 feet, but it could possibly be negotiated down to 25 feet. My thought: so much for sailboats docking in Trail Creek -- most masts aren't going to fit under a 25 foot clearance.

QUOTE
Is the north end route proposing to place NICTD's trains on Amtrak rails, under the control of Amtrak dispatchers?

If not, have they included the cost of separate tracks and facilities in the projected cost of the north end route? Also - will the new station have separate platforms for eastbound and westbound Amtrak and South Shore trains (in other words, 4 platform tracks)? If not, how do you propose to separate NICTD traffic from Amtrak?


Their plans appeared to me to have a single platform at the station with tracks on either side, the northern set of tracks for Amtrak and the southern set of tracks for the South Shore. From a conversation I had with you, Joe, I understand that running freight trains next to a platform is a problem, but I didn't have the opportunity to ask them about it. Anyway, one set of rails for Amtrak and one set of rails for NICTD on the elevated section.

QUOTE
How do they answer the assertion that an elevated railway will be a visual fence across the lakeshore, and diminish rather than enhance the city's connection to the lake?


They had a pretty picture of their proposed station, with all sorts of pretty design elements. They even had an artist's conception of what the view from the station, which they suggest would be just west of Swingbelly's (the old Amtrak station). The artist's conception shows a view of the Chicago skyline. That view looks to me like what one might see from the beach -- through a telescope. My guess is that a view from the proposed location is going to primarily be the backside of the NIPSCO power plant, which I suspect doesn't fascinate many artists.

QUOTE
Where is the extra funding for the north end route coming from? Don't say "stimulus" - that's a buzzword, and meaningless at this point. There's nothing about the north end route that is "shovel ready".


My questions last night were about cost and funding. Mr. Miller answered that the bridge over Trail Creek was estimated at $200 million, and when I pressed him on that, that was just for the bridge -- with the approaches, the new station, and the rest, the cost would go up to at $250 million or $300 million or more (close to $10,000 per person living in Michigan City.)

The answer to my question as to where the money would come from? What many on the internet would refer to as "hand waving." Federal funds, NITCD, Amtrak, bond issues for $50 million paid for by Blue Chip riverboat money over 10 or 15 years (errr, aren't those funds shrinking due to lower revenues at the casino? Not to mention casino revenue may not be high enough to pay that off -- do we get more than $7 million per year from the riverboat (to cover principal and interest on those bonds)?), bonds paid for with TIF funds (I almost laughed out loud at this -- we at the Elston Grove Neighborhood Association have been waiting a couple of years to get decorative streetlights in the neighborhood which would cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Good luck getting the millions for a bond issue!)


Years ago I remember seeing some grandiose plans proposed during the 1920's for the Chicago lakefront, including airports built on floating islands out in Lake Michigan. My reaction was "Gee, that looks cool! Would cost so much it would never happen, but sure looks cool!" My impression of the north end proponents is that they came up with the idea that "gee, that looks cool!" but didn't get to the "Going to cost so much that's never going to happen" part.

I've previously stated that I think the NICTD proposal is their Christmas list of everything they could conceivably want, but that a lesser version would be something they would accept -- the current proposal is simply where they want to start negotiating from. If Michigan City essentially gives NICTD 11th street and reduces the number of grade crossings, and tell them they have to landscape the corridor and maintain it without putting up fences that aren't there now and we've managed without for a hundred years, NICTD won't be concerned about knocking down 150 or so houses, because they'll get their tracks out of the asphalt.

One of the reasons that I can't take the north enders too seriously is that they were talking about getting politicians on board, and suggested getting Senator Lugar involved. Why they figured the Republican senator from Indiana would be enthusiastic to propose spending upwards of $300 million in federal funds in the most solidly Democratic section of the state instead of , oh, say, Senator Bayh, the Democratic Indiana senator, in my opinion shows how well connected to reality they are.
joe.black
QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 20 2009, 01:24 PM) *

Their plans appeared to me to have a single platform at the station with tracks on either side, the northern set of tracks for Amtrak and the southern set of tracks for the South Shore. From a conversation I had with you, Joe, I understand that running freight trains next to a platform is a problem, but I didn't have the opportunity to ask them about it. Anyway, one set of rails for Amtrak and one set of rails for NICTD on the elevated section.


There are definitely issues with running freight trains next to a high level station platform. At NICTD's current high level stations, there are two sets of tracks - a main track that the freights use that allows their greater width to clear the platform edges, and a "gauntlet track", or station track that tucks in closer to allow the passenger cars to snug up to the edge. That would be required (but, then again, it would be required at an 11th Street Station with high-level platforms as well).

My bigger concern is that this pretty much locks NICTD into a single track railroad through Michigan City. If the north end proponents are suggesting a separate track for NICTD and a separate track for Amtrak, what do you think the cost would be at some point in the near future to construct a new extension to the bridge and reconfigure station platforms to accomodate a second NICTD track? It would be fairly costly, to be very understated.

The only other way to do it is to build a second track and allow Amtrak and NICTD to operate over them in opposite directions...which means Amtrak would control it.

QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 20 2009, 01:24 PM) *
They had a pretty picture of their proposed station, with all sorts of pretty design elements. They even had an artist's conception of what the view from the station, which they suggest would be just west of Swingbelly's (the old Amtrak station). The artist's conception shows a view of the Chicago skyline. That view looks to me like what one might see from the beach -- through a telescope. My guess is that a view from the proposed location is going to primarily be the backside of the NIPSCO power plant, which I suspect doesn't fascinate many artists.
My questions last night were about cost and funding. Mr. Miller answered that the bridge over Trail Creek was estimated at $200 million, and when I pressed him on that, that was just for the bridge -- with the approaches, the new station, and the rest, the cost would go up to at $250 million or $300 million or more (close to $10,000 per person living in Michigan City.)


Add in the additional incremental cost of double tracking the NICTD alignment on the north end (with all of the ancillary 'stuff' that a water crossing requires) versus double tracking an 11th Street alignment that is specifically sized to one day allow a second track, and the cost goes up even more...

QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 20 2009, 01:24 PM) *
The answer to my question as to where the money would come from? What many on the internet would refer to as "hand waving." Federal funds, NITCD, Amtrak, bond issues for $50 million paid for by Blue Chip riverboat money over 10 or 15 years (errr, aren't those funds shrinking due to lower revenues at the casino? Not to mention casino revenue may not be high enough to pay that off -- do we get more than $7 million per year from the riverboat (to cover principal and interest on those bonds)?), bonds paid for with TIF funds (I almost laughed out loud at this -- we at the Elston Grove Neighborhood Association have been waiting a couple of years to get decorative streetlights in the neighborhood which would cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Good luck getting the millions for a bond issue!)


I've seen this before. "We're here at A, then we go to B, then *something happens*, and we get to D". The "something happens" part is the one that is the hardest to answer. They apparently weren't very convincing.

Thanks for the recap, Dave.
Dave
QUOTE(joe.black @ Aug 21 2009, 09:55 AM) *


QUOTE
The answer to my question as to where the money would come from? What many on the internet would refer to as "hand waving." Federal funds, NITCD, Amtrak, bond issues for $50 million paid for by Blue Chip riverboat money over 10 or 15 years (errr, aren't those funds shrinking due to lower revenues at the casino? Not to mention casino revenue may not be high enough to pay that off -- do we get more than $7 million per year from the riverboat (to cover principal and interest on those bonds)?), bonds paid for with TIF funds (I almost laughed out loud at this -- we at the Elston Grove Neighborhood Association have been waiting a couple of years to get decorative streetlights in the neighborhood which would cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Good luck getting the millions for a bond issue!)


I've seen this before. "We're here at A, then we go to B, then *something happens*, and we get to D". The "something happens" part is the one that is the hardest to answer. They apparently weren't very convincing.

Thanks for the recap, Dave.


Thanks for your views on this stuff, Joe.

And to elaborate for the other folks reading this, when I related above to the funding sources the north enders anticipate getting money from, to my untrained ears it didn't sound so much like a careful and well thought out funding strategy as it sounded simply like wishful thinking.

I'm sure that at least some of the people involved with the north end proposal are very sincere, and I know that some of them have been working on this thing for years. I just don't think that plan is workable, cost effective, or necessarily desirable. As I told one of the gentlemen after the Elston Grove meeting, if I was given $300 million to do something to improve Michigan City, it wouldn't involve moving the South Shore tracks from where they've been for the past 100 years, it would involve the purchase and demolition of the lakefront NIPSCO power plant and its replacement with a bunch of lakefront residences.



Southsider2k12
Good call Dave on NIPSCO.

I also don't see the need to increase the cost of this project by a factor of 4-5 times. In this era of recession, it also isn't realistic.
lovethiscity
QUOTE(southsider2k9 @ Aug 22 2009, 09:43 PM) *

Good call Dave on NIPSCO.

I also don't see the need to increase the cost of this project by a factor of 4-5 times. In this era of recession, it also isn't realistic.

I hope they do not considor todays economic times in a decision. No matter which route they take, it will be 8 - 10 years before ground will be broken. I would hope the economy will not still be in a recession.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...amp;TM=42883.01

QUOTE
Houses in jeopardy?
This is the first of two stories on houses that could be demolished if the proposed South Shore relocation occurs.

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Preliminary South Shore relocation plans, released in June, call for removing a two-mile swath of houses on the south side of 11th Street as part of a track realignment.

Meanwhile, people like Linda and Gene Rodriguez have been working hard to renovate some properties on 11th Street that could be slated for demolition.

The couple was surprised to find out about the South Shore plan. They had completely renovated a duplex at the corner of 11th and Spring streets, and now live in the upper level. Since then, they have purchased a dilapidated 100-year-old brick house on the opposite corner.

"It broke my heart," Linda said about the South Shore plan. "We've been working ourselves to death on these houses."

She and her husband are investing time and money into the renovations, but Linda said she believes they will recoup their investment.

"We're going to be OK no matter what if we get fair market value," she said.

Still, she's not happy with how some changes could impact the neighborhood. While walking across 11th Street from one of their houses to the other, Linda said, "Can you imagine seeing fences? It's not going to be a neighborhood." Both sides of a new South Shore track would be fenced, according to plans of the public agency that operates the commuter train, Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District.

As for her neighbors, Linda said, "There seems to be a general consensus that they (government) are going to do what they want. They don't think there is anything they can do."

The Rodriguezes moved here two years ago after retiring to be close to their grandchildren. They fell in love with Michigan City.

"We like the fact that we are close to transportation, the beach, restaurants and the marina," Gene said.

Wanting to diversify their investment portfolio, they decided to purchase and renovate rundown properties, converting them into decent rentals. As retirees, they have the time and energy to do much of the work themselves.

"We like improving neighborhoods," Gene said. "The more you do this, you don't get so scared."

The duplex they refurbished had been used by crack addicts and dog fighting rings.

"The yard was a garbage dump," Linda said. "There were dirty diapers, beer cans, crack pipes and spoons. The neighbors told us stories that broke our hearts."

When the Rodriguezes tackled the first property improvement project, they felt the energy change in the neighborhood. The homeowner next door repainted their house. Linda talks about the Elston Middle School student who walked by their house on her way home and did a double take after noticing the transformation.

"These are good, stable, long-term neighbors," Linda said. "This is a pretty mobile neighborhood. People like to take walks and wave at their neighbors."

The Rodriguezes moved into the upper part of their duplex last October, and rented the lower part. Linda pointed to a window where she would look across the street at the house the couple is currently working on.

"I looked at this house and it looked like it had been cared for but nothing was going on," she said. "The potential was amazing. We walked over to check it out and saw vandals had stolen some of the siding."

Gene called vacant, rundown properties "magnets for crime."

"Vagrants were coming in and out of here," Gene said. "We got into one closet and found a pillow and comforter."

They also found raccoons and their babies, cats and fleas.

"We're doing a complete renovation," Gene said, listing new drywall, ceiling repairs, new plumbing, electrical work, a new roof and foundation as some of the things to be addressed.

The couple figures they have time to complete the work and rent out the house before having to worry about the South Shore.

"If they say it's going to happen in two to five years, our experience with the federal government is it will take longer than that," Linda said.

Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...ArticleID=25371

QUOTE
If South Shore plans proceed, then city resident wants certain homes preserved

Laurie Wink
The News-Dispatch

MICHIGAN CITY - Arlene Dabbert Tarasick is ready to battle anyone - including the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District - whose plans threaten to destroy historically significant homes in Michigan City.

Tarasick, a preservationist and lifelong city resident, is arming herself with archival information to safeguard certain houses in the 1200 and 1300 blocks of Washington Street south of 11th Street in an area that could potentially be cleared to build a new train station for a relocated South Shore commuter rail line.

Tarasick is doing historical research that will document and, she hopes, protect properties that did not fall within the Washington Street Historic District for political reasons, she said.

"The most important houses were north of 11th Street," Tarasick said. "There has always been a kind of dividing line (there)."

But she thinks houses south of the South Shore tracks are worth saving, too.

The first wave of redevelopment in Michigan City wiped out a number of important houses, she said.

"No one in the town was thinking restoration," Tarasick said. "If you said 'restoration' in 1964, people would have said, 'What?'"

Tarasick feels that, as a lifelong Michigan City resident, she is in a good position to understand the important connections here and help document history. She helped establish the Historic Review Board and has been active in the Michigan City Historical Society.

Tarasick isn't against NICTD's plans to revamp the South Shore route, saying she understands it's the most practical, affordable option. But she threatens to "tie myself to a post" if certain houses are targeted for destruction.

She cites Dr. Alexander Mullen's home at 1215 Washington St. as an example of a historical home located outside the historic district.

"He (Mullen) opened a hospital north of 11th Street and established medical offices in his house," Tarasick said. "It shouldn't be destroyed because it's important to the history of this town."

T.C. Mullen, the doctor's son, was a prominent person in the community who played a significant role in developing Washington Park, according to Tarasick. The former Mullen Elementary School, where Tarasick served as principal, was named for T.C. Mullen, she said.

"The South Shore people know none of this," Tarasick said. "They should inquire before they willy-nilly send a bulldozer."

The house at 1203 Washington St. was built by the Ginther family and three generations lived there. They were laborers who started a meat market on Willard Avenue, Tarasick said, and the house is socially significant, even though it wasn't occupied by a wealthy family.

"Not just rich people's houses are important," she said. "The importance of a house is determined by what they (owners) meant to the community."

Three historic homes in the 1300 block of Washington Street are important as well, she said. Although NICTD's initial plans don't threaten that block, Tarasick is concerned that plans could change.

"I just don't want them to overkill," she said.

Contact Laurie Wink at lwink@thenewsdispatch.com.

mcstumper
QUOTE(lovethiscity @ Aug 23 2009, 09:03 AM) *

I hope they do not considor todays economic times in a decision. No matter which route they take, it will be 8 - 10 years before ground will be broken. I would hope the economy will not still be in a recession.


8 to 10 years it about the length of the average economic cycle. Think about that the Bush I recession started just before the 1992 election, the Clinton recession was just before the 2000 election and the Bush II recession was just before the 2008 election. We should just be nicely in the middle of the next one.
Southsider2k12
Dave and company, it seems that the north end group didn't get the memo about the quarter billion dollars or so it would take to fix this particular bridge (if I am understanding everyone correctly)

http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...ArticleID=25426

QUOTE
High-speed trains may face obstacle here
Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm announced Monday that she has requested more than $800 million in stimulus money for her state's portion of the high speed rail corridor between Detroit and Chicago. Michigan's goal is to support 110 mph trains and reduce the time from Detroit to Chicago to four hours from the present six hours.

Aren't they going to be surprised when they reach the Trail Creek swing bridge and need to either slow down or stop and wait for it to be rotated or repaired. The New North End Group has been asking our city leadership and the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District to please investigate a new elevated bridge over Trail Creek that would service both Amtrak and NICTD. This in concert with an elevated station in the area of Swingbelly's would put rail commuters from both Amtrak and NICTD within easy walking distance of our soon to be developed Trail Creek Corridor containing 986 new residences and 55,000 square feet of retail space envisioned by Mayor Oberlie in his 2008 State of the City Address.

In the mayor's 2009 State of the City address he referred to our city's four decades of negative growth since the 1970 census (when we had 39,000 people). Can you imagine the shot in the arm our city would experience by having people working in Chicago and living in Michigan City? This station would also put people within easy walking distance of the beach, marina, outlet mall, casino, zoo and museums.

This would also eliminate the miles of fences through the 11th street corridor recommended by NICTD which are bound to divide our city's neighborhoods. Let's hope our city's leadership sees the stimulus package for high speed rail announced by President Obama as an opportunity to move our wonderful city forward.

Our city leaders have done a wonderful job getting consultants to work with our citizens to develop the vision for our North End. It's been very difficult obtaining the properties needed for this development and they've nearly completed this task. Now it's time to get NICTD and Amtrak at the same table to see what needs to be done to meet the high speed rail requirements in a way that will enhance our city's North End Development.

If anyone wants to know more about our group's North End vision call me at 879-7997.

Leigh Coburn

Michigan City
Dave
One of the questions I'd have for the North Enders would be, even if Amtrak decides to build a high level bridge, how much additional cost would be entailed in "piggybacking" additional rail lines on the bridge for NICTD?

I have to think that if Amtrak is running trains at 110 mph, the last thing they're going to want is going to be doing is sharing those tracks with local commuter rail lines.

As for the miles of fences and other objections to the 11th street plan, once again, the proposed plan is just their first proposal, their "Xmas list." NICTD will settle for a lot less, as long as they can get their rails out of the asphalt.
Dave
This could be relevant...

http://nwitimes.com/news/local/article_d1c...b7a3f86c9c.html

QUOTE

Indiana wants $71.4 million in stimulus for NWI high-speed rail

Illinois asks for $550 million

* Story
* Discussion

Keith Benman - keith.benman@nwi.com, (219) 933-3326 | Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 12:00 am | (15) Comments

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Indiana met a Monday deadline to apply for federal stimulus funds for a Northwest Indiana project that would be a key link in a proposed Chicago-to-Detroit high-speed rail line.

The Indiana Department of Transportation applied for $71.4 million to expand the capacity of Norfolk Southern Corp. tracks running from the Illinois line to the town of Porter, said INDOT spokeswoman Shelley Haney.

The added capacity would be vital to any high-speed rail line coming out of Chicago headed to Michigan or Ohio. Amtrak trains from Detroit often are forced to wait while freight traffic clears those tracks.

The project also may have direct benefits for the region, with an earlier study by the Indiana High Speed Rail Association finding the region could realize up to $1.17 billion in economic benefit from such a line. That benefit is based on previous plans for a high-speed rail station at or near Gary/Chicago International Airport.

States had until Monday to apply for $8 billion in federal funds dedicated to high-speed rail projects, with Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm announcing her state applied for $833 million.

Illinois also hit the deadline for first round funding, applying for $550 million in stimulus bucks for three high-speed rail routes: Chicago to St. Louis, Chicago to Milwaukee and Chicago to Detroit.

"They are working very hard to bring high-speed rail to Illinois," said Paris Ervin, an Illinois Department of Transportation spokeswoman.

The states basically are planning to upgrade and expand existing Amtrak routes so trains can run at consistent speeds of 110 mph, which would cut the trip from Chicago to Detroit to four hours, from its current six hours.

Some states also have long-range plans to build truly high-speed, European-style systems through which trains could run at speeds up to 220 mph.

Indiana put off applying for stimulus funds for its portion of a proposed Chicago-to-Cleveland high-speed rail line and for another running from Chicago to Cincinnati, Haney said. That's because the two projects would not have qualified for 100 percent stimulus funding.

INDOT now hopes to seek the money in a second application round in October, when it believes they would qualify for funding at the 100 percent level.

On July 27, eight Midwest governors and Chicago Mayor Richard Daley signed a pact dedicating them to the development of eight high-speed rail corridors. The announcement followed the inclusion of $8 billion in funding for high-speed rail in President Barack Obama's stimulus bill, which Congress passed in February.

Adding capacity to the Norfolk Southern Corp. tracks running from the Illinois line to the town of Porter is vital to any high speed rail line coming out of Chicago headed to Michigan or Ohio. Amtrak trains from Detroit often are forced to wait while freight traffic clears those tracks.

The project may also have direct benefits for the region, with an earlier study by the Indiana High Speed Rail Association finding the region could realize up to $1.17 billion in economic benefit.

Posted in Local on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 12:00 am Updated: 5:55 pm. | Tags: Transportation,
mcstumper
QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 27 2009, 09:24 PM) *

This could be relevant...


High speed rail. What a boondoggle.
If I needed to get to Detroit so fast and I wasn't allowed to drive, I would take the South Shore to the South Bend airport and catch a flight on one of them new fangled high speed aeroplanes.

So really... no one here thinks its lunacy to spend billions of dollars to build a high speed rail line to DETROIT!?!?! Why stop there. Lets get an early start for that much needed extension to Flint.

Oh, and Leigh, do you think the high speed choo-choo could do 220mph around the curve in the track that is just south of NIPSO plant. I think not. It would be creeping around it at 35mph, so who cares if it has to slow down to 25mph to go over the floating bridge.
joe.black
QUOTE(Dave @ Aug 27 2009, 06:25 PM) *

One of the questions I'd have for the North Enders would be, even if Amtrak decides to build a high level bridge, how much additional cost would be entailed in "piggybacking" additional rail lines on the bridge for NICTD?

I have to think that if Amtrak is running trains at 110 mph, the last thing they're going to want is going to be doing is sharing those tracks with local commuter rail lines.

As for the miles of fences and other objections to the 11th street plan, once again, the proposed plan is just their first proposal, their "Xmas list." NICTD will settle for a lot less, as long as they can get their rails out of the asphalt.


Dave, you're spot-on with the high speed rail observation. It is extremely difficult to operate high speed rail service in mixed traffic (i.e. with other classes of train - normal Amtrak, South Shore passenger, CSS&SB freight trains, etc.). High speed trains, for obvious reasons, require a longer distance to stop than lower speed trains. For that reason, they cast a longer "stopping distance shadow" in front of themselves that cannot be encroached upon by another train if you expect to be able to sustain high speeds. If you start to fill up the empty space in front of a high speed train with commuter or other lower speed traffic, the train control/signal system will enforce a decreased speed for the hot shot train, in order to ensure that it has adequate safe braking distance in front of it. So, the upshot is that you cannot schedule a lower speed train ahead of a hot shot for some defined time period at least equal to the time it would take the high speed train to catch up to a lower speed train (and usually longer than that, because the lower speed trains are normally locals, stopping at every station). That severely constrains an operations planner's ability to write a schedule that's convenient for the local service's passengers and provides enough trains to handle demand. It practically requires you to "clear the decks" once an hour (or however frequent the high speed service would operate) so the hot shot can operate unimpeded.

Secondly, operation of high speed trains in mixed traffic environments leads to two less than optimal situations: "gapping" and "bunching". "Gapping" refers to the long time and space distance that develops behind a higher speed train in the lead and a following lower speed train. You lose the opportunity to use some of the capacity of the line because you wind up with long headway gaps between different classes of train; you can't simply insert a train in that developing gap, so you lose some of the utility of the line. "Bunching" refers to the groupings of trains you get when lower speed trains are operated ahead of higher speed ones. The high speed trains run up to the rear "signal wake" of the leading lower speed trains, get slowed down by the train control system, and as a result you get "bunches" of trains across the line (with high speed trains being reduced to the speed of the local trains when they bunch). The only way to ensure that these phenomena do not occur is to wholly separate high speed tracks from local tracks, so that you get trains with uniform performance characteristics operating together.

So, that means - high speed rail is no solution to the north enders' cost issues. You would still need an entirely separate NICTD track (or two) across the bridge. And I can't imagine that Amtrak or some high speed rail authority would build extra bridge decks for NICTD out of the goodness of their hearts.
Southsider2k12
http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sectio...ArticleID=25596

QUOTE
South Shore relocation means big loss of taxes
The NICTD-South Shore relocation proposal would mean an estimated loss of $150,000 to $250,000 in property tax revenue per year to Michigan City, the schools, the county and other local units of government because of the taking of 150-plus pieces of property.

This is based on an investigation by one of our group [The It's (Y)our Government Group}, John VanderWagen, who found that the valuations for those properties is about $11 million, although some property like churches is exempt. Their present map indicates they would take all homes on the south side of 11th Street, several blocks between Franklin and Wabash streets south to at least Green Street for a station and parking, plus a building and houses from Chicago Street to Sheridan Avenue south of 10th Street.

The Michigan Township assessor, the county auditor's offices in Michigan City and Deputy County Assessor Judy Anderson have confirmed that neither the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District nor the Chicago, South Shore and Southbend Raaild (SouthShore Freight), a private company, pay property taxes to us.

Keilah Heffington, who for the last 10 years has been a utility specialist with the Indiana Department of Finance, has confirmed in e-mails that NICTD is not taxed since it is a public agency, but SouthShore Freight is assessed a yearly state tax, which is deposited into the Indiana Commuter Rail Fund under state law, and it is her understanding that those collected taxes re used for NICTD.

The assessed value of SouthShore Freight property is $4,588,700 and it was billed for $137,293.90 for 2008, with those taxes going into that commuter fund for NICTD.

The proposed north end route would require limited private property to be acquired, lowering the tax losses to our citizens, and it doesn't have all the other negative aspects of NICTD's plan, with fences, closing 17 plus streets and splitting our city off at 11th Street.

Lou Hapke

Michigan City

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